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Posted by speckx 1 day ago

New method turns ocean water into drinking water, without waste(www.rochester.edu)
468 points | 199 commentspage 3
nandomrumber 21 hours ago|
I’m not even going to night clicking on a title that is clearly a load of bullshit.

I suppose you could water down the ocean water it’ll was drinkable, or like just add half a teaspoon of sea water to a cup or drinking water.

Buy all work done eventually decades in to waste heat.

mkl 1 day ago||
> without waste

...except for the huge piles of salt.

If the salt was not waste, surely people would already be extracting it from the brine and the existing methods would also be "without waste".

eimrine 1 day ago|
Persian Gulf has 20% more salt in water because of the humans which are throwing the oversalinated waste back into the sea. Dehidrated salt may be a big deal for some areas because of no waste into input.
Jblx2 1 day ago|||
>Persian Gulf has 20% more salt in water because of the humans

I would like to read more about this from an authoritative source.

tdb7893 1 day ago||
Through the magic of Googling "Persian Gulf salinity" it seems like it's more that it's a shallow Gulf in a dry area so it has significant evaporation. Desalination does effect it but it's only a few percent of the total evaporation (which is still surprisingly big) and doesn't sound like the main driving factor or an imminent ecological concern.

https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/marine-science/articles...

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S14635...

Animats 1 hour ago|||
Look at a map. The Persian Gulf is a dead end, and all ocean water flow has to come through the Strait of Hormuz. There's some fresh water coming in from the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, but less each year as that fresh water is captured and used, and as global warming increases evaporation.

The San Francisco bay has to be actively managed for similar reasons. It's a large body of water with a narrow outlet, fed by a river system from which much water is captured. If too little water comes in from the Sacramento River, the delta will turn to salt water. Managing that is what the Bay Model, mentioned recently, is for.

card_zero 19 hours ago||||
Huh, looks like they process about 1/500 of the water in it every year. So enough to make a dent in the salinity eventually.
MyHonestOpinon 23 hours ago||||
pardon my ignorance. But, all that salt was there already. right? Is it that we have less water there now ?
fc417fc802 19 hours ago||
If salt and water flow in but only water flows out you will be left with salt. Same reason that concentrated brine comes out of a desalination plant, or that the dead sea is what it is.
Jblx2 1 day ago|||
I thought the HN-way was to be more charitable than just directly calling out obvious bullshit.
mkl 20 hours ago||||
The brine is waste, and the dehydrated salt is also waste. Maybe dry waste is better, but it's still waste.
fsck400 13 hours ago||
Lavoisier’s “Traite elementaire de chimie” refers to water electrolysis.
sathyayoshi 1 hour ago||
[flagged]
napierzaza 2 hours ago||
[dead]
fluorinerocket 1 day ago||
Can we please ban university press releases
cush 23 hours ago|
why
gus_massa 5 hours ago||
I'll bite, I'll bite. But first ...

@GP: Instead of a plain complain, it's better to get an interesting discussion to write an explanation of why the post makes no sense, or instead find the good debunking comments and upvote them (there are two or three good comments near the top now).

I try to be that guy (personal hall of shame https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... ) but life is too short and I have other things to do IRL.

Also, it's not my area. It's close enough to have a good guess, but in this case for me it's better to let someone else give an accurate reply.

---

Back to this post:

It obviously makes no sense. You have salt water, you extract the water, you have to get rid of the salt. Why waste time reading the details? [There are some interesting technical ideas about new surfaces, more on this later.] Reading the details their brilliant idea is to make salt cubes and sell them. So there is no waste!

When you get rid of the salt using brine, it's easier to transport and dilute the liquid. With solid salt you must scrape it form your high tech surface (without scratching it?!) and now the solid salt is difficult to transport. Also, to sell it you must purify it because it will include nasty things like crabs legs and sea smell.

Once you extracted the 99% of the water, it's difficult to extract the other 1% of the water because it's saturated solution with a low osmotic pressure, vapor pressure and a high boiling temperature. Also, water inside the block of salt is difficult to extract, and you must crush the small blocks.

Salt production is done in big salt lakes areas, where energy is "free". I like to consider it like a huge natural solar panel. You get heat for "free" and dry wind for "free". You must pay for them in an industrial facility. Also, the normal process still requires a lot of manual labor of guys/gals with [mechanical] shovels to makes piles of salt, wait, turn it a few times, wait, turn it a few times, wait, ... and you now have a nasty salt that you still have to purify to be able to sell it.

So they will get salt that is too expensive to sell, and too much of it to flood the market, and if you put it in the garbage can it will be classified as [industrial] waste.

---

The technical part looks interesting, but it's on the bottom of an unrealistic title and first paragraph. The interesting part is about the new surface with nano details and titanium oxide that absorbs Lithium. It sound interesting and they published it so there is some validation of the claim, but after the nonsensical first claims I'd want to take a look at the feasibility details.

---

>> Can we please ban university press releases

> Why?

I work in an university and I expect technical accuracy from the press department of an university. We want people to give us money in exchange of doing real and interesting things. We want people to trust the medical doctors when they give health advice, or a lot of other specialist about other public policies.

A lot of press release of the universities have a lot of exaggerations, burning the trust of the people. Before opening one here, I like to guess what is the real result and what is the bullshit part. I think that a complete ban of university press release here is too much, but I understand why the GP is annoyed.

doublerabbit 1 day ago||
What about removing oil from water, have we conquered that yet?
noripcord 1 day ago||
you can now extract (like mining) minerals from the ocean, sounds kind of dangerous for the ecosystem maybe? making it profitable to extract magnesium, lithium, salt... we can probably guess how this story goes.

i'm hoping it doesn't scale, honestly.

fc417fc802 19 hours ago||
You're wildly underestimating the scale of the ocean. If we could extract all our necessary minerals from it rather than mining them that would alleviate a huge cause of environmental damage.
card_zero 23 hours ago||
You're worried we might use all the salt in the sea for some kind of ... salt pyramids, send the water back out through sewers, and consequently leave the world's oceans diluted? That's about 1 followed by 21 zeroes, I think, in liters.
noripcord 22 hours ago||
no, just take the water, remove the salt & minerals. Over time it'll dilute. Water falls again in the form of rain, obviously, but not the salt.

You're not worried? If it's for batteries? For sure they'll extract whatever they can.

card_zero 21 hours ago||
Right, remove the salt and minerals. We don't need that much salt, so we'd have to build pyramids or something with it. We drink the water, but then it ends up back in the oceans. The reason I mention that part is because if it didn't, if we could destroy the water, then the remaining water would retain the same salinity, and the concern would be that we drain the ocean dry, which is silly (I refer you back to how big it is). But we don't destroy water when we use it, so instead the worry is that we dilute all the world's ocean, which is also silly (I again refer you back to how big it is). We need a lot of batteries, but the sea is not useful as a source of lithium except as a byproduct. Even if it was the only source, the old batteries themselves would soon become a better source, as concentrated stores of lithium compared to the very-much-not-concentrated lithium in the ocean. But anyway the good places to mine lithium are on land (and are dried-up bits of ancient ocean, I think).

(I checked, some deposits are old lakebeds like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salar_de_Uyuni and others are igneous.)

It's also possible - true, I bet - that all the car batteries and storage batteries 8 billion people could possibly use are equivalent to only a tiny fraction of all the lithium in the ocean, but it would be harder arithmetic to confirm that, as well as being irrelevant on account of land-based mines existing.

picofarad 14 hours ago||
Someone above said 4kg of magnesium per ton of seawater. Apparently lithium is 0.18g per ton of seawater.

That still means there's billions of tons of lithium in the seas, though.

kaonwarb 1 day ago|
This reads like hyperbole:

> The brine byproduct wreaks havoc on sea life when it’s deposited back into the ocean by raising the salt level and lowering oxygen in the water.

Managing return of concentrated brine should be entirely tractable in the literal ocean.

rconti 1 day ago||
Sure, but typically desalination plants are located in a single physical place, so a discharge pipe dumping brine 24x7 is bad for all of the things around it, as the local concentration is extremely high.
joshred 1 day ago|||
Seems like you could run a long perforated tube to diminish that effect.
dieselgate 1 day ago|||
I wonder what the linear diffusion gradient would look like for that. Like the perforated garden hoses or whatever for soaking soil. Aquatic organisms grow so quick though very curious on the constraints for something like this.
dylan604 1 day ago||||
I liked the idea of loading it up on a ship that sails out releasing as it goes out and back. Make it solar powered or even go old school with literal sails.
sgc 1 day ago|||
I thought they tend to pipe far out and discharge as far below the surface as possible, since there is a lot of surface life and it is less damaging this way.

Ships (with long submerged pipes) would be prone to weather events and generally less reliable than an installed pipe. Perforation would be prone to clogging from build up so a nonstarter I would expect. Adding flex tubing and a relocation robot would be a maintenance headache as well. Not sure there is an easy optimization.

dylan604 23 hours ago||
Ships wouldn't need a long submerged pipe. It'd just need a small hole like a bilge drain or maybe a live well on a fishing boat. Just let the boat cruise around slowly draining back into the ocean.

As for surface life, I'm no oceanographer, but is that really the most vulnerable place? The surface is where fresh water rain meets the ocean, so that would dilute the salinity during storms. However, there's nothing to say that another pump couldn't be pulling from the ocean and mixing the brine into that so it's diluted before and not just pouring brine straight into the ocean

sgc 15 hours ago||
I think your sense of scale is off. 90% of sea life is on the surface. 0.029% of ocean water is replenished from rainfall annually. Desalination concentrates are absolutely toxic to life. The current daily volume of brine discharge would require more than half the tankers in the world to be filled and discharged every single day. They would of course not last long with such a routine.
dylan604 6 hours ago||
Is that a total for all of the oceans? I understand that as a whole, rainfall is literally but a drop in the ocean. However, confined just to the local area where the rain is falling, the area’s salinity has to change. Just like adding the the desalinated brine is a minuscule amount compared to the whole ocean, it has large effect locally.

Regardless, it is totally possible to reintroduce the brine back to the ocean in a way to not be a shock to the local area. We have just chosen to make it harder on ourselves for some illogical reason.

sgc 1 hour ago||
In my opinion you are hand-waving away a difficult engineering problem and proposing a naive solution as if it would solve a problem that has already been partially solved, by rejecting all the work that has already been done on it. Don't dump on the surface, don't burn millions of tons of fuel a year to do it, study what has been done and improve on it instead.
scythe 1 day ago|||
If you want to be really clever about it, maybe the ship is powered by the brine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osmotic_power

gibspaulding 1 day ago||
I like this! Though I’m not sure the math works. That page says ideal efficiency for that system would be something like 0.75 kWh/m^3. Compared to 4000 to 5000 kWh/m^3 of diesel. Now we don’t need to be efficient since the point is to use up our “fuel” and we don’t need to cary cargo for this to make sense but with numbers like that, I don’t think our boat will be able to make enough power to move at all.
01100011 1 day ago||||
And it doesn't even need to be a rigid pipe. A flexible pipe made out of, say, waterproof fabric, could be cheaply made to extend miles while remaining open due to the pressure of the water pumped into it.
dylan604 1 day ago||
Things left underwater tend to collect things on it which would make this much less porous over time.
XorNot 22 hours ago|||
The short version is brine is weird: it's surprisingly resistant to diffusing and tends to flow more like an immisicible fluid. So you have to put quite a lot of effort into getting it to actually disperse rather then just fall to the seafloor.
fc417fc802 19 hours ago||
That's silly, you'd mechanically mix it with seawater rather than wait for it to diffuse. The concern would be the volume of desalinated water extracted from the local region versus the flux from ocean current. As long as that ratio is acceptable there won't be any long term problem.

Alternatively, in the absence of sensible regulations a cutthroat operator devoid of ethics constructs a plant that dumps concentrated brine in the immediate vicinity because that's the cheapest approach. Then reactionary elements raise talking points about environmental damage and pretend that it's a difficult problem to solve. Business as usual.

dizhn 12 hours ago|||
Then they should become salt producers too. Win win (win).
bilsbie 1 day ago|||
The brine thing is just a way to shut down conversation and let people feel superior for claiming there are no solutions to our problems except to reduce our standard of living.

It’s obvious you can safely put salt back into the ocean with enough dilution. I bet a middle schooler could design a system to do it.

rplnt 10 hours ago||
Yeah, middle schooler with middle school understanding can design anything. There are plenty of middle school solutions in the comments around. The problem is when they meet real world, beyond their high school level understanding of the issue.
gausswho 1 day ago|||
It kinda depends where it's deposited, right? The expected AMOC collapse is fundamentally about salt imbalance.
wolfi1 1 day ago|||
depends of course, how easy does the brine dissolve, how long does it take that it is so diluted that it can't do any harm, without that information it's not easy to tell
dylan604 1 day ago||
These are often built near shallower parts along the coast where changes are more pronounced.
boxed 1 day ago||
I mean.. we really want to permanently desalinate the ocean somewhat too so putting the brine back seems kinda stupid. Put it on land, let it dry, sell some as table salt and dump the rest into abandoned mines.
wizzwizz4 1 day ago||
Excellent idea! The largest abandoned mines I'm aware of are salt mines, which… hang on.
boxed 3 hours ago||
Yea, that's one of the problems. We're literally digging up salt AND the mountains are being eroded to add more salt. The Earth is getting anti-terraformed and we're speeding it up. (Although obviously the fossil fuel situation is a much closer and worse problem)