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Posted by igmn 16 hours ago

Dopamine Fracking(igerman.cc)
687 points | 353 commentspage 2
bsimpson 15 hours ago|
He's right - that phrase evokes what he means better than many alternatives.

But this feels like an article where you get all the useful info in the title. The rest is just a rant about the modern internet being bad for your brain.

froh 13 hours ago||
i got much more out of it and it's intelligently written

I see this structure:

* introduce dopamine fracking

* the wonderful strawberry analogy to what we loose, personally, by giving in to the substitue for the real thing

* how they (the author) managed to in baby steps turn down attempts at fracking _their_ dopamine: through awareness of what's happening and what were missing because of it

so until there is some bigger scale solution, we can at least self regulate.

and overall the article is a positive note in difficult times.

I especially loved the strawberry analogy.

killerstorm 9 hours ago|||
There's an unresolved tension within the article:

* some parts of it imply it's about higher intensity, 'bigger' dopamine hits * while other parts talk about commodification, i.e. making these 'dopamine hits' as cheaply as possible, with as little other substance as possible

Not the same thing. There's a connection - reducing 'substance' make it more 'pure' dopamine, also there's some loudness war between different sources. But still, in the end people generally don't feel anything intense when scrolling tiktok, it's just enough to grab attention.

I guess more direct analogy with fracking might work better: it squeezes dopamine hit out of things which normally don't warrant attention.

DaanDL 12 hours ago||||
Same here, I enjoyed it too. A lot of people are nitpicking on the strawberry analogy, but there is certainly something to be said about the commodification of everything.
zigman1 11 hours ago|||
I agree with you, also about the strawberry analogy. I was quite surprised to read that author is 22 years old. So many young smart people around!
aaron695 13 hours ago||
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anon-3988 9 hours ago||
The prime example for me of this phenomena is selfies. What is the point of taking pictures, really? To capture the moment? Or to post to social media? If I am going to be honest, most pictures today are taken so that they are able to be broadcasted it to everyone.

I believe I have superior taste in this where I don't take selfies but instead take pictures of people and environment just doing stuff. The moment someone says "smile for the camera!", thats an inferior, fake situation that does not bring me any joy. I don't like looking at those pictures because I know everyone is faking it. I know because the moment the picture was taken, they would immediately sighed and drop the smile.

rapnie 9 hours ago||
Carrying a camera around at all times killed the value of photographs to large extent. I know people who come home from a one week vacation with 100's of pictures, that are never looked at again, and which spoiled all the moments where one could really enjoy the scene. Music concerts where nearly all the crowd film the concert and mostly miss the experience by doing so, is another example.
Gigachad 8 hours ago||
I don’t think it’s having a camera that killed it, it’s that most people stopped printing their photos. Most people have thousands of poorly sorted and duplicate photos on their phone which aren’t very enjoyable to scroll through.

I went and sorted through all my photos and printed out the best ones to pin up on a board. I love looking at them and everyone who comes over finds it interesting to look through the photos on the wall too.

rapnie 8 hours ago||
Yes, you explained better. It is having the camera always with you and the abundance of photos that are the result, which for most people including me are too much and too boring to sort out. I find myself in the opposite situation now, when at a happening or event I take no photos at all, because I came to hate taking them. Feel it is not worth spoiling the moment. But that means not recording the valuable moments for later, so I may come to regret that at old age.
Gigachad 7 hours ago|||
I started taking an old digicam with me to events. I don’t ask people for a photo for them to pose, I just capture as it was before they notice.

The old flash photography combined with candid authentic expressions is really refreshing to see again. The phone camera and look is just so overdone that it’s boring. Taking photos with an old tech and different focal length feels fresh and fun. I don’t post these on social media, I just print them and share the pics directly with the person, everyone has loved it.

There’s also a delayed gratification aspect. I can’t just post these from my phone as soon as I take them. I have to go home, take the sd card out, and copy them over before I can share them. I think there’s something to be said for just slowing down and enjoying the limitations.

rapnie 7 hours ago||
I like that, and I heard it is becoming a bit of a trend where people also leave their phone at home, and more deliberately choose the precious moments to capture. Nice.
eszed 5 hours ago|||
I took essentially no photos in my twenties (long before phone cameras) for exactly this reason - and, in the short term, absolutely did remember events better than the folks who were constantly looking for their next digicam shot. I'm now living the long-term of that, though, and regret that I have nothing "tangible" to show my wife and kid, or even to re-spark my own memory, about all the amazing things I did back then.

I'm a bit more intentional now: I don't pull out my (phone) camera all that often, but I try to look for something that will represent - not record (that's impossible), but spark a memory of - the moment later. By the way, people are more important for this than things, or "the thing" itself. I actually think the selfie brigade are on the right track, for all that they may become annoying by overdoing it.

wvh 9 hours ago|||
I'd say there's at least a third reason: intellectual (or rather technical) curiosity of photography itself. Often, when I take a picture, it is just to see how a particular shot turns out, much less so for any sentimental value to myself or anybody consuming those images later on.

I'd also say that's most likely a healthy kind of dopamine usage, as it's leading one into a life of exploration, learning and wonder.

But you're right, taking a true in-the-moment picture is a skill.

mft_ 8 hours ago|||
I always remember a posed photo that one of my old bosses had on her desk. It was of her and her daughter; she was giving a big attractive (to my eyes faked for the camera) smile, and her daughter looked miserable.

I appreciated the unintentional honesty: time and time again you see kids being told to smile for a camera, when they’re young enough that society hasn’t yet ingrained in the social necessity of doing so.

Garlef 8 hours ago|||
> What is the point of taking pictures, really?

Ephemeral communication?

It's fun; Gets a group together; They touch for a moment; Look at it together; "Oh my good I look so fat"; ...

smallnix 9 hours ago|||
I don't use social media (aside from HN). I take selfies to remember a moment. Not to capture it, my memory is good enough for me for that.
stavros 9 hours ago|||
I used to think this, and I only took photos of places (without me in them). Then I realised that the value of the photo is to remind me of what I was doing, how I was feeling, etc, not just that I was in the place. I agree that faking smiles makes the photo worth less, but just don't fake anything.
anon-3988 8 hours ago|||
I am not against taking selfies in the literal sense. Go ahead and take a snap of you and your surrounding. It becomes sad and depressing when someone needs to do multiple takes and even worse, touch up the image.
jannyfer 9 hours ago|||
Agreed, I used to think this but now enjoy taking quick selfies, and my phone will dig them up and remind me of fond memories later on.

GP conflates selfies with posed photos.

basisword 8 hours ago|||
>> I don't like looking at those pictures because I know everyone is faking it.

Maybe you're not far enough removed from them yet. Looking back on a group photo years later, especially if some of those people have died, is a very pleasant experience. The point isn't "look at us all smiling" when you know that it was posed, the point is "remember all of those people there that day, we were together, we did x etc". It reminds you of the entire event, not the specific moment of taking the photo.

Edit: Sit with a parent or grandparent and go through their photo albums. Almost all the photos are posed and you'll see how great that can be.

Cthulhu_ 8 hours ago|||
I'd say selfies just aren't for you, and that's fine. For many others it's not, and friends at a distance may just like seeing their friends' faces instead of just the subject. But I don't understand it myself because I'm outside of those circles. (and less face oriented but that's probably the autism/introversion lmao)
drcongo 6 hours ago|||
I posted something very similar on here last year after a visit to Ibiza - as we sat eating lunch in the castle in Ibiza old town, a group of young women spent the entire time we were there, maybe an hour and a half, in turn posing for photos next to a plant. Each time one went in for the pose, they'd pass their phone to a friend to take the pictures. It went on and on. The two things that really struck me about this were: 1. all the photos seemed to be taken with the subject's phone, so nobody had any photos of the people they were actually there with, and 2. If they'd turned around, there was an absolutely stunning view right behind them.

I felt old.

regexorcist 6 hours ago||
These days, go anywhere in the world with a pseudo famous landmark and watch the same thing. I've been travelling long enough to remember people being present and taking in the experience. Now it's literal queues for the perfect spot to take 100 near identical photos of themselves, and choose a few later for social media.
ryandrake 2 hours ago||
I've never understood the need to take a picture of yourself. I know what I look like--I don't need a photo to remind me. The rare times I ever even take a picture of something, it's because that thing is interesting or unique, and I'd like to look at it carefully later.
teaearlgraycold 8 hours ago||
I feel similarly. Take good photos of your friends doing cool things. Absolutely do not stop everyone for a group picture. Forget things. It’s okay to forget the minutia of life.
lezojeda 5 hours ago||
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initramfs 2 hours ago||
Great article.

I've wanted to write an article about mulberries (long before this article), and the reason why they are not sold in grocery stores, is because of their precious shelf life and tendency to stain with gendle handling.

I recently read about CERN transporting antiprotons to another facility.

I then thought, if CERN can move antiprotons, surely someone can figure out how to sell mulberries at the local grocery?

Of course, not everything needs to be commercialized. Some of the best things in life are free.

Tade0 10 hours ago||
> The constant search for the next big thing, the next big hit of dopamine,

The search itself is the dopamine hit. I think the author, if anything, meant endorphins, it's just that there's so much misleading pop science about this, that everyone blames poor old dopamine for their woes.

ivxvm 5 hours ago||
Yeah, when people say "dopamine hit" nowadays that can mean anything from serotonin to endorphins to even adrenaline. What they usually mean is simply an optimized experience. Optimized, commodified, industrialized, etc, in a way article describes.
ivanjermakov 9 hours ago|||
Amount of misinformation regarding dopamine is staggering. While it plays a huge role in modern social media practices, it is relevant in search/anticipation phase, not having fun/resolution phase.
Tade0 8 hours ago||
Personally I blame Jordan Peterson. He described dopamine's role correctly, just didn't adjust the message to his audience, who in turn misunderstood what he said and passed that on, referencing him as an authority.

Now that I think about it adrenaline was the previous go-to chemical which somehow explained all human behaviour.

teekert 9 hours ago||
True. I think it's the same as everyone calling pain killers "aspirin" (where I live, maybe in the US is Tylenol? Which we call Paracetamol), they call SARS-CoV-2 AND COVID-19 "Corona", or "Corona-virus". Sending an App means sending a message via Whatsapp here, it's not "sending a link to an app-store or play-store app (or whatever)" as one would think. Some (way to many!) people mean their browser when they say "the internet". AI means LLMs, but not always, sometimes it includes CNNs (I try to use gen AI and machine learning, but people look at me weird)...

Similarly, Dopamine now just means "a short hit of instant gratification" to the average person. I also don't like it, it leads to misinterpretations of scientic texts (which are usually very strict about word usage, and consequently differ from the "popular" meanings of a word, or in this case, molecule).

¯\(ツ)/¯

lagrange77 10 hours ago||
I've noticed as a kid, that strawberry flavoured candy doesn't actually taste like strawberries. They are clearly and collectively recognisable as strawberry candies, but that's just pattern matching and conditioning on wording. The flavour has not much to do with actual strawberries, even the sweetness is vastly exaggerated. The synthetic aroma is much less complex, as the author noted. We just fell into the habit (or trap) of using the same word for both flavours.

On the other hand i'm wondering if that's just an implementation detail. A temporary imperfection in simulating the real thing due to constraints in (chemical) engineering and cost, not a hard limit.

Neural Networks are universal function approximators. Throw enough resources at them and they will mimic the most complex function to an arbitrary level of detail.

ryandrake 2 hours ago||
I think all "fruity" candies are pretty much the same sugar, and our brain merely looks at the color and packaging and fills in a "flavor" for it. Maybe my taste buds are just not working, but I don't think I could do a blind taste test and identify a candy's claimed flavor.
lagrange77 1 hour ago||
Yes i guess color and packaging make a huge part of the effect. But they do use artificial flavors and i imagine that i could blindly differentiate apple and strawberry candies, but i could not blindly associate them with their natural pendants.
sleepycat801 9 hours ago||
The difference is driven by cost and shelf stability considerations, more than taste. Most candy is sugar with a hint of novelty.
bshepard 12 hours ago||
Anxiety over commodification is very, very old, and tends to miss the upsides of commercial society. Intellectuals, by our nature, focus on problems -- often to the point of creating problems where (perhaps) there were none before. Happily "dopamine fracking" will probably not metamorphose into another menacing sounding anti-commercial phrase. There are enough already.

If you are sympathetic, or even curious, about the advantages of commercial society Deirdre Mccloskey's bourgeoise trilogy is an excellent place to begin.

hw1618 11 hours ago||
You could argue that anxiety over climate change is somewhat old, and yet I'd argue that there's ever more evidence the problem is real. Just because the direction of travel was identified a long time ago, it doesn't mean that it's desirable or impossible to change.
ralfd 11 hours ago|||
It is noteworthy that this is a German source and German culture is by default pessimism and malaise.
mx7zysuj4xew 11 hours ago|||
That would be more of a Russian worldview

German culture is more or a romanticist "Sturm und Drang" kind

zigman1 11 hours ago|||
As per info on the site, author is not German and does not live in Germany (Russian living in Poland). Apparently, his name however is "German".
dabedee 13 hours ago||
It's great that someone penned their experience and path towards self-awareness in a way that helps others achieve the same. Or, at least for me, it put words on an uneasy feeling I hadn't yet fully materialized. I too would be saddened if the flattening of our shared human experiences accelerated even more.
kalx 11 hours ago||
Great read, thanks. Just always consider what you are doing when you tag a friend in a meme: feeding your friend the internet drug. Is that what you wanna do to someone you care about?
veunes 10 hours ago|
Sending someone a dumb meme can also be a form of affection
Gigachad 8 hours ago||
Occasionally if it’s very relevant to the person. But so many just dump every single thing they saw on TikTok in your DMs.
sharpshadow 2 hours ago||
The conclusion acknowledges information compression, media hygiene and awareness. Solid points which most online surfers lack of.
raffael_de 8 hours ago|
I think the contemporary canonical term has to be Dopamaxxing.
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