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Posted by ravenical 7 hours ago

Every Frame Perfect(tonsky.me)
279 points | 89 comments
fasterik 1 hour ago|
I agree that some of the examples the author provided are instances of bad animation. But I don't agree with the premise of the article.

Computer graphics is all about exploiting features of the human visual system. We perceive things differently when they're moving vs. when they're standing still. It's very possible that a "wrong" frame in isolation is the best looking one in a real-time context. We can also pick apart screenshots but these don't capture everything about how the user perceives a display in real-world lighting conditions.

I would draw an analogy to film. A fast tracking shot might look bad on individual frames because of motion blur. A wide-angle shot might make some objects look "wrong" because of optical distortion. But these are still the right choice if they have the intended artistic effect in the theater.

nvme0n1p1 33 minutes ago||
The final "zoom animation from Preview app" also illustrates the inverse. Every frame looks perfect in isolation, just like the author wants. It's only when you see it in motion that you notice the issue.
jesse__ 46 minutes ago|||
I like this comment. The idea that animations should be able to be picked apart frame by frame and always be coherent doesn't make much sense, because the user will never actually do that.

I do like the point the article makes about using ui fidelity as a proxy for software quality, and agree that they pointed out some bad animations. But, I think you hit the nail on the head .. frame by frame coherence isn't the best yardstick for measuring animation "goodness".

jchw 42 minutes ago|||
I think you are taking it a step too far. First of all, unlike film, we are not recording reality in any way, every pixel that appears on screen is there because we put it there. I'd argue a closer parallel is a cartoon. And something like cartoon inbetweening is not an example of imperfect frames. These are in fact, perfect and even carefully crafted frames.

It's one thing if the frame halfway through an animation looks a bit "funny", but is still completely logically correct. It is another if the intermediate state of the animation legitimately doesn't make any sense and is just the result of not really caring about what actually goes on during the animation. In that case I'd almost rather just not have the animation at all, or just have a simpler one.

fasterik 13 minutes ago|||
We're not recording reality, but we're trying to create convincing and aesthetically pleasing effects for brains that evolved in reality.
iterateoften 33 minutes ago|||
Frame transitions in film do not in fact exist in reality. They are added in the editing room or through manipulation of the recording mechanism fyi.
voidnap 1 hour ago||
What do you think the premise of the article is? The article is pretty narrowly speaking of "app" UI and your comment is a "well actually" that some videos intentionally introduce noise or temporary discomfort for an emotional or artistic effect. On the same basis, comments like yours would defend screen shake if it was added to desktop and mobile apps on every user input.
fasterik 1 hour ago||
The premise of the article is that every frame of an animation should look good if captured and analyzed statically, in isolation. There's no reason provided for this other than "it feels right." I'm saying that this ignores how the human visual system works and how we perceive displays in real-world lighting conditions. I used film as an analogy to illustrate the point.

The idea that I would defend screen shake is a complete straw man. How do you get from my comment to that conclusion?

SarthakGaud 18 seconds ago||
New Principle and I love it, however its hard to do on move dynamic and populated sites like youtube. Gonna follow this from my next project.
ikesau 3 hours ago||
I'm sure a UI that had none of these imperfect frames would feel better, but now I really want someone to edit each of these clips to show what it would actually look like.

At the same time, why does everything need motion? My understanding is that motion should be used if an action subtly changes the UI in a region that's different from where the action was triggered (e.g. toasts)

I think many of these transitions are unnecessary and would feel just as good if they snapped immediately with instantaneous reflow.

Kiro 1 hour ago||
Play any game with good UI and you will see animations used everywhere. Instant transitions are only good in theory.
mrob 1 hour ago|||
Games are entertainment products, not tools. It's acceptable for a game UI to draw attention to itself for artistic effect, but I don't want to have to put up with this when I'm trying to get work done. Instant state transitions become imperceptible as you learn how they work. An instant UI effectively functions as part of your body, just like hand tools do. Animations make this impossible.

Compare an ordinary pencil (no animations, movement is directly tied to your hand) to a pencil with a pompom on a spring attached to the end. Which is most fun for brief use? Which would you rather write a whole page of text with?

jesse__ 55 minutes ago|||
Animations are highly effective tools for conveying state information.

Consider a toolbar with a mix of enabled and disabled buttons. Hover effects (which I would consider animations) convey that something is clickable, and on-click effects confirm an action. These effects convey meaningful information to both beginner users and power users of any software, and are in no way inconvenient to either group.

I generally agree animations tend to get in the way when you want to get shit done, but the idea that animations are only applicable as artistic effects rings untrue to me.

mrob 36 minutes ago||
Hover effects are a terrible way of indicating if something is clickable, because you have to mouse over them instead of just looking at them. This problem was already solved a long time ago by rendering inactive elements in gray. I'm not sure which GUI did this first, but the Apple Lisa (1983, first mass-market personal computer with a GUI) definitely did it.
mawadev 1 hour ago|||
I think this is key to understand the motivation behind pretty and animated UIs. In games it has a different motivation compared to UIs that you use as a tool. If you compare old software to new software, a lot of tab switching and hotkey magic is simply not there anymore. Blender has a notoriously difficult UI but once you get the hang of it, you become very efficient. I think the current way of creating UIs caters to people making decisions of whether to purchase the software but that don't actually use the software in the end.
lynndotpy 1 hour ago||||
Maybe you dislike them, but that does not make for a fact.

Instant transitions are something I strongly prefer and use in practice. There's no question, I don't want my operating system slowing itself down to a factor (literally) of 1000x, pointlessly fading and jiggling and sliding and bouncing and wiggling. And, as this article points out, animations in operating systems often make a visually illegible mess in the meanwhile.

Animations might be a good idea in theory, but it doesn't seem like anyone has figured out how to do them right.

cwillu 52 minutes ago||
Indeed: one of the first things I do on a new android phone is activate developer mode specifically so that I can set the animation timescale to 0×.
voidnap 1 hour ago||||
No they are not used everywhere. Some games with good UI use animations everywhere that an animation is appropriate. But plenty of good UI exist without animations. The point above is that no animation is better than an inappropriate animation.
jayd16 1 hour ago||||
You will also see plenty of cases where a screenshot captures incoherent frames.

Squash and stretch is a whole art style that relies on unrealistic frames.

jdiff 59 minutes ago||
You're thinking of smear frames. Squash and stretch are animation techniques that are perfectly coherent. Smear frames as well contribute to an overall coherent animation. They're a counterpoint to the general idea put forward in this article, but it's also rarely ever relevant to this type of animation.
pmontra 1 hour ago||||
Games are games, work is work. I disabled every animated transitions in my desktop UI. Elements appear instantly at full size in the place they rest and disappear instantly.

Reasons:

1) I'm doing that thousands of times per week, I know what's going to happen

2) It's my desktop, there is no one else who might be puzzled by a non standard behavior

3) It's faster.

By the way, it is a GNOME desktop on Debian 13.

Oops, I lied. I was about to click on Reply and I realized that the bottom panel (which on a standard GNOME is at the top) is on autohide with a short transition. Maybe because it's the only transition that I activate with the mouse pointer: I hit the bottom of the screen and while it's traveling the last pixels the bar starts sliding in. It's very fast.

Krssst 1 hour ago|||
Games are for fun. Wasting time in a game is fine, that's what it is for. (edit: not saying that pejoratively)

Other applications are to do things. They should do the thing and get out of the way as fast as possible. Animation-induced delays are fundamentally contradictory with that; they waste the user's time instead of doing the thing.

embedding-shape 1 hour ago||
I think the default "product manager wants to build flashy animation" fundamentally contradicts that, but I also don't think it's fair to apply that criticism across all animations.

Good and useful animations communicate something, they're not there just to be there or to make it "pretty", which is most designers use them. But they can actually communicate intent, action, immediacy and other important things, if they're used sparingly in the right situations, without actually getting in the way.

Probably the most basic animation most of us PC users see every day is the very basic animation of a text cursor blinking on/off in text fields, like the one I write it right now. It's super basic, but communicates that the computer is waiting for you, it's alive and you can enter things. If it was static, you get the impression something is stuck instead, or couldn't tell exactly where the cursor is at a glance. But it blinks, and that tells us stuff.

Krssst 1 hour ago||
The cursor animation is actually a great one because it does not add any latency. By comparison, when animations are not disabled on my Pixel 6 it takes almost one second to switch application instead of maybe 100ms (double tapping the app swap button to get to the previous app running).
embedding-shape 59 minutes ago||
God yeah smartphones are the worst, Apple (& co) particularly. My iPhone 12 Mini could feel so much faster if I could just disable all the annoying animations that just make everything feel slower instead of being helpful. Setting animation speed to 0x is probably the feature from Android I miss the most.
ryukoposting 1 hour ago|||
> At the same time, why does everything need motion?

They don't. Most things don't. This kind of nonsense keeps an extra half-dozen people employed, and gives license to a half-dozen other people to smugly proclaim $BRAND's design language is superior to alternatives.

In most of the cases shown, it would probably feel better if the animations weren't there. I clicked the button, show me the thing. Don't do a dance and then show me the thing, just show it!

tsunamifury 3 hours ago|||
Motion is critical for reorientation after transition.

Often with out it your brain has to rescan the entire page on each refresh.

mrob 3 hours ago|||
Outside of dedicated notification areas, a GUI should only change state in response to user action. Because the user requested the state change, they naturally know how it changed. This means any animation is a redundant waste of time.

The notification area doesn't need animations either, because a GUI is only appropriate for displaying non-urgent notifications. If something really needs urgent attention, you need alarms and flashing lights, not an animated "toast".

tsunamifury 43 minutes ago||
This is the standard confusion HNers have with real life.

I think it should work this way vs “how it be”

geokon 3 hours ago||||
Do you have some concrete examples?

"Back-in-the-days" you'd click and stuff would instantly happen, and I don't remember anything being more difficult to visually interpret.

On my Kubuntu desktop if I disable all animations (the whole compositor) I don't feel there is an increased cognitive load of rescaning things - but maybe it's my preexisting memory of the UIs and certain baked in UI expectations. Maybe this animated stuff helps people that are computer illiterate? (software made for the lowest common denominator)

voidnap 1 hour ago||||
This isn't true generally. I am personally far more comfortable with disabling smooth scroll. It has more to do with your mind's expectations. Which can vary between people. Some people expect smooth and others don't. Motion itself isn't necessary.

The only time I have to "rescan" is if I input a scroll and anticipate a scroll and it doesn't scroll. It has nothing to do with motion. In fact, in that case, I "rescan" even though the page hasn't changed, but because it doesn't match my expectation that it would change.

ikesau 3 hours ago||||
Ah yeah, that makes sense, but I still feel like there's room for a little more discretion.

https://tonsky.me/blog/every-frame-perfect/toolbar@2x.mp4, for example

I don't think I would have to rescan the entire page to figure out where things were afterwards. Everything's shifted to the right, just like when I open my browser bookmarks.

encom 1 hour ago|||
>Motion is critical for reorientation after transition.

The only case I can think of where this is true is on scroll, and that barely counts as animation. Anything else is an irritating waste of time.

The absolute worst offence is animating page content on scroll. Great job making me wait on pointless nonsense while scanning your website for the bit I'm looking for. People who do this should be sent to reeducation camps. Both for the animation, and for disregarding 'prefers-reduced-motion'.

crystal109 1 hour ago||
[flagged]
mrob 2 hours ago||
I'd rather have an imperfect frame now than a perfect frame later. Latency should be the top priority for any UI, because when latency is low enough it feels like a part of your own body, which minimizes cognitive load. Animation is especially bad for this, because animations add hundreds of milliseconds of latency.
cloogshicer 2 hours ago||
I think that's a false dichotomy. The examples the author gives would not be slower in any way if done correctly.
amluto 11 minutes ago|||
Old computers, before double-buffering and compositing, were fast. Single-digit millisecond latency from input to output was common.

Now it’s 30-ish years later and computers have not recovered the latency increase from compositing, double-buffering, and other attempts to make every frame perfect. If you are showing a frame on the screen that has failed to react to input that already occurred, especially more than about 20ms later, that frame is not perfect. It’s extra imperfect if the user cannot easily do what they’re trying to do while waiting for the computer to catch up with them.

But yes, most of the examples in the article are surely both imperfect in the sense the author meant and pointlessly slow, so there is no dichotomy :-/

chaboud 1 hour ago|||
However, the author makes these assertions:

- No partially loaded content. - No relayout while content loads.

Holding those as hard rules leads to delay or rejection. Instead, while I agree it's better to have everything up front, gracefully handling cases when we don't is important, and some degree of responsiveness, even with partially loaded content, often makes for a better experience for the user than a delay.

Just be up front about it and find ways to keep continuity of relationship and smoothness. Diffeomorphic mappings are your friend...

true_religion 10 minutes ago||
I saw that but couldn’t really connect it to the rest of the article because none of their examples had data loading.

Like the issue with the osx side bar transition is that the order of operations makes no sense.

When expanding, it makes the buttons vanish only to animate their reappearance from nothing once a panel slides over them.

It would make sense in the physical world if the panel occluded the buttons during transition.

During closing, the reverse problem happens. The buttons aren’t occluded but clip through the panel like it became water.

It happens fast but not so fast that you can’t see it, and there is an unnecessary distortion.

In today’s world of AI, good taste is all we human workers have so we should call out cut corners.

inigyou 2 hours ago||
You might have thought the title was about Wayland and you're right. But this isn't about Wayland.
namuol 59 minutes ago||
Would be nice if there were some _positive_ examples to go along with all of the negative ones. All I’m really getting from this is that I should avoid animations, which I don’t think is what the author is actually trying to say.
akersten 39 minutes ago|
> All I’m really getting from this is that I should avoid animations

Wouldn't be the worst takeaway from the article. You should avoid animation for animation's sake in general. Imagine if we animated letters flying up from your phone's keyboard into the text field as you type them for example.

naet 2 hours ago||
I think it's not uncommon for good animations to cheat a bit while in motion, rather than look perfect on every frame. Like how cartoons can use smear frames that look bizarre when paused at the wrong time but when viewed as part of a larger animation help sell the motion visually.
sanjit 28 minutes ago||
Agreed!

With MacOS I felt there was a major quality change for visual quality & animations when SwiftUI was used BY Apple for the OS and applications.

I'm not a developer, but it felt there were areas where an icon or window just didn't visually work the way it used to or SHOULD in placement or animation.

The hackish-ness hasn't changed over time: there are so many examples throughout the OS/Applications that I want to say "it was always like that", except it wasn't: Apple set the bar and it was high, the quality was exceptional.

I feel there are a lot of hacks going on with SwiftUI to achieve the same UI placement or animation.

Last quick note I think about often: a lot of analog creation was really hard. It still is. When it comes to digital we've been thinking we'll come back to things later, but never do... we build more bad on top of bad... sadly.

akersten 41 minutes ago|||
Yeah the difference is that the blur frames are deliberate and purposeful for the overall effect. The animations showcased here are accidental jank that reveal a clobbered together unpolished app.
ryukoposting 1 hour ago|||
I don't think this analogy works because the blur frames look good in motion, and the frames in the blog post look terrible in motion. The animation in the first example is so bad that the first time I watched it I thought there was going to be three buttons at the top at the end, and it was weird and disorienting to realize there was only two.
DavidVoid 1 hour ago||
The game Overwatch is a pretty great contemporary example of this [1]. It has some excellent fluid animations, which look really weird if you freeze frame them.

[1]: https://youtu.be/vIdeGmN__Pw?t=550

hankbond 3 hours ago||
This resonated with me, but I would have loved to see some positive examples as well. The tone did not read as a rant, but as someone that doesn't know too much about good UI construction, I did not feel like I walked away any closer to understanding what a North Star should be.
jastanton 2 hours ago|
Or if the author mocked out what each of the bad examples should look like if done properly.
hk__2 1 hour ago||
> The rule of thumb is: If I take a screenshot of your app at any moment, it must make sense

After reading this blog post, I think the rule of thumb should be "If I take a screenshot of your app at any moment (except during animations), it must make sense". I don’t think making sense during an animation should really be a goal, as long as it makes sense before and after.

montroser 1 hour ago||
Well, this is the exact opposite of his point. Of course it should make sense when not animating! That is given. The entire crux of his point is that it should also make during an animation.

In an ideal world, it is hard to argue with. Yes, sure it should make sense. But also, please don't spend precious cycles on this unless all the other bugs are fixed, and this animation consistency is truly the most important remaining issue to address.

appplication 1 hour ago||
I think you nailed it. Animation nuance is fine to burn time on if you’ve run out of things to do.
embedding-shape 1 hour ago|||
It's like you read until that point, but then didn't read the justification for why it makes sense to care about frames during the animation, the author does outline a bunch of reasons why it should make sense during the entire thing.

Maybe I've just spent too many years as a pixel-perfect chasing frontend developer, but things can look very janky if they jump out of place during animations, compared to where they are before/after.

alluro2 1 hour ago|||
But the author tried to show exactly that, if screenshots during animation don't look sensible, it points to animation as a whole not making sense - it being either messy, overlapping, or confusing - and, in general, eroding the user's trust.
motoroco 1 hour ago||
I first heard something similar taking motion design classes in art school: every frame should look good. Transitions and animations that have bad in-betweens look bad overall
mbostock 2 hours ago||
There’s a similar principle of congruence in information visualization, stated in Animated Transitions in Statistical Data Graphics by Heer & Robertson as: “Maintain valid data graphics during transitions. To ensure viewers’ mental models are congruent with the semantics of the data, we suggest that, as much as possible, intermediate interpolation states remain valid data graphics.” https://idl.uw.edu/papers/animated-transitions
mawadev 1 hour ago|
Feels like UI elements have a lot of abstractions that are not perfect for motions. With every hack you work around the layout engine that gives you this simplicity of defining layouts. Some libraries allow you to define keyframes for the motions in between, but it still isn't perfect, especially if you look at the youtube sample where one element overlaps the other and the animation would take up too much time or look odd if this wasn't the case. Even if you perfect all of this, would you really want to spend more processing power and script weight on these aspects? I feel like most UIs have severe latency issues out of the box, anything that doesn't address the elephant in the room adds insult to injury.
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