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Posted by Bender 3 hours ago

Measles surge in Utah sparks fears US could undo decades of progress(www.dailymail.com)
113 points | 109 comments
arjie 2 hours ago|
Quite interesting to see that measles is coming back. I suppose there is a notion of generational memory. Two generations out, people forget what the world was like. Forgetting like this on a civilizational level is probably adaptive unless it’s catastrophic and a measles epidemic is eminently survivable as a civilization if incredibly tragic for the families affected.

I had measles as a child, too. Fortunately, my parents are doctors and I was well cared for and nature was good to me as well. So here I am, pretty much fine. I’d rather have not had the disease, all things told. Incredibly contagious disease. I was in the room with the other sick child for only a few moments.

chasil 2 hours ago||
It erases immune memory, taking away antibodies to recently exposed diseases. It's best not to get it.
bryanlarsen 56 minutes ago|||
And by "it" you mean measles? Or do you mean the vaccine? Completely reverses the message of your post!
WarOnPrivacy 35 minutes ago||
> And by "it" you mean measles?

Yes. They mean that measles "erases immune memory, taking away antibodies to recently exposed diseases.".

The grandparent was discussing their measles experience and the parent was responding to that.

selectodude 2 hours ago||||
And there’s a non-zero chance that it lives dormant in your brain and you die several years later. Absolutely bonkers.
flawn 2 hours ago||||
What is the evolutionary advantage of this? I mean, if the host dies subsequently that's pretty bad for both parties, or?
californical 2 hours ago|||
Sometimes, even usually, evolution finds a “local maximum” of effectiveness. Where the solution an organism finds is not optimal but it’s good enough for the organism to survive, even win.

So yeah I’m sure evolution didn’t create something perfect in the disease here but it survives long enough, and kills few-enough people slowly enough in the wild to survive

techjamie 1 hour ago||||
Evolution is just a race to "good enough to consistently reproduce" and everything after the sufficient reproduction is irrelevant. Like the goats whose horns have to be cut or they'll eventually pierce their own brain.

Generally it's more advantageous for your own anatomy not to kill you without intervention, but they reproduce and that checks off the "good enough" box.

fhdkweig 2 hours ago||||
If it can spread before killing the host, it has done its job (evolutionarily speaking).
cjmcqueen 2 hours ago||||
Viruses don't care if the host dies. Evolution doesn't explain all things in nature.
lightbulbish 1 hour ago|||
Evolution theory by itself doesn’t give us the ability to explain everything in a certain moment, but that’s only due to lack of knowledge on our part.

Consider that measles in itself comes originally from a animal but a mutation found itself be able to spread to humans. That, in and of itself, is the process of evolution.

So while it is not necessarily a useful lens to try to interpret a moment in time as many unknown factors are at play (for example the same gene that is important for mortality might also impact survival in certain environments, and therefore how contagious it could be), if we were to understand it’s history of every mutation that came and went, the environments it lived in, evolution theory would explain why the path looked like it did. And subsequently why it is like it is today.

tgv 1 hour ago||||
I think that question is too simple.

1. We might not be the only hosts or place where it can survive. Measles seems to have mutated from a cattle virus.

2. Killing the host might be the virus' end-game, in which case it evolved to extinction. Mutations nor evolution don't have a goal. There's not always an advantage. I bet most changes aren't advantageous.

3. If you really want to see everything in terms of evolutionary change, the virus could even been seen as a tool in human evolution.

Evolution is a way to look at changes in and forces operating on living things. It is a property that emerges for human observers. Nature doesn't care about it.

lazide 1 hour ago||||
It’s a side effect in a small portion of the infected. It spreads well enough regardless, so it doesn’t particularly hurt it.
colechristensen 1 hour ago|||
The virus "cares" if it reproduces. There is often tension between the various levels of spreading mechanisms: for example airbourne spread diseases making you cough vs. the cough making the host feel poorly and not interacting with people or the cough killing the host really preventing further spread. There are plenty of optimum points between fast intense disease and asymptomatic disease.

Short term intense disease courses tend to only work for a short period of evolution for new infection mechanisms, the intensity makes them sensitive to any increased immunity which ends up halting the spread for more mild versions. Infectious diseases tend to lower in intensity over the long term.

throwa356262 2 hours ago|||
Wait, measles erases antibody memory?

First of all, this is scary. Secondly, I wonder if it hase the same effect on autoimmune disease?

chasil 2 hours ago|||
It destroys memory B-cells.

"Once the measles virus contacts the mucosa lining the respiratory tract, it binds to SLAM (signaling lymphocyte activation molecule, also known as CD150) on the surface of macrophages and dendritic cells. These cells then take up the virus... These immune cells pass the virus on to other groups of immune cells, including B cells, T cells, thymocytes, and hematopoietic stem cells, which disseminate the virus to other organs during the incubation period.

"Immune amnesia

"The measles virus can deplete previously acquired immune memory by killing cells that make antibodies, and thus weakens the immune system, which can cause deaths from other diseases. Suppression of the immune system by measles lasts about two years and has been epidemiologically implicated in an increase in childhood mortality from other infectious diseases during this period. The measles vaccine contains an attenuated strain of the virus which does not deplete immune memory."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measles

mrtesthah 2 hours ago||||
Measles infections can trigger the following autoimmune diseases:

* Type 1 diabetes

* Multiple sclerosis

* Rheumatoid arthritis

madaxe_again 2 hours ago|||
It can. It’s not common, from what I understand, but there are cases where it has put various autoimmune disorders into remission, either temporary, or permanent.

That said, you become far more likely to end up sick with a whole bunch of other stuff, which can then eliminate any benefits for the autoimmune disorders.

Oh, and there’s also a chance it will give you an autoimmune disorder.

Absolute bastard, if you ask me.

pavlov 1 hour ago|||
> “Two generations out, people forget what the world was like. Forgetting like this on a civilizational level is probably adaptive”

We are forgetting the lessons of WWII, and the world is now stocked with thousands of nuclear weapons each hundreds of times more powerful than Hiroshima.

I don’t think we as a civilization can afford this kind of amnesiac adaptation anymore.

bryanlarsen 51 minutes ago||
We've also lost everybody who remembers the lessons of the 30's.

There's a saying that people get more conservative as they age. But the Greatest Generation, those that experienced the 30's and WW2 tended in the opposite direction, voting more left as they aged.

jancsika 1 hour ago|||
> Quite interesting to see.

No, the article is a shitshow.

Ben Dowse is an MD, not a pediatric nurse.

The family ended up accepting the antibody treatment before leaving the hospital. The Daily Mail article bizarrely implies that they never accepted the treatment.

Both journalistic mistakes are clear from reading the beginning of the Wired article linked in the error-laden Daily Mail article.

Did you notice these errors?

arjie 1 hour ago|||
I did not notice those. And it's my fault for not looking at the Daily Mail critically by looking one level deeper. I should know better than this since this is something I complain about, and also I am aware the DM is rarely accurate. I suppose it aligned with my previous knowledge that we are on the verge of losing herd immunity in much of the anglophone world: https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/2016217002008809982?s=2...

Thanks for contradicting.

I do think it's interesting that herd immunity is failing, but the linked piece itself is not very good, agreed. Amending now to make it clear I don't think it's that the article is interesting.

entuno 1 hour ago|||
The Daily Mail is a trashy tabloid, so it's not surprising. Weird to see it posted here as though it's a credible source for anything.
Arodex 1 hour ago|||
It is not "generational memory", it is an active campaign of lies and FUD by crooks, grifters and idiots.
masklinn 1 hour ago|||
I would say generational memory is a factor, if you've seen an uncle or a grandparent who'd had polio, or you're old enough that measles was a thing in your youth, and you've seen these ailments disappear over your lifetime, the lies and FUD will have a much harder time taking root.

If these ailments are completely abstract in both their scope and personal effects, it's easier to be convinced by emotional manipulators. Especially if you're part of the... let's say low empathy population.

petilon 1 hour ago|||
It is not lies if Mr. Kennedy actually believes vaccines are harmful. Idiot, yes. Liar, no.
estebank 10 minutes ago||
Sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from malice.
madaxe_again 2 hours ago||
It seems like there’s a pretty strong parallel with the failure of the screw worm eradication programme. It just became a thing we did, rather than the absolute miracle it was - like vaccination - and then from complacency grows suspicion, for again, as you say, few people alive remember how it was.
Avshalom 2 hours ago||
Well the screw worm thing happened because Elon Musk hired a bunch of twitter nazis to put the government through a wood chipper.

This is the end result of decades snake oil moguls empowered by orin hatch and then turbo charged by people being furious that they weren't allowed to go to TGI Fridays for six months.

arjie 1 hour ago|||
I don't think that's true. Supply-chain issues caused by the COVID-19 pandemic and response were probably a big factor - or so I've read, I'm not an expert. In any case, by 2024 (pre-DOGE), new-world screw-worm fly had breached the Panama boundary where we can feasibly keep it contained with a fixed on-going effort. I remember because some time during the pandemic I learned about the thing from someone linking a much older article in the Atlantic[1].

0: https://web.archive.org/web/20240218010527/https://www.fas.u...

1: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2020/05/flesh-ea...

WarOnPrivacy 1 hour ago|||
> This is the end result of decades snake oil moguls empowered by orin hatch

What did Hatch do (I mostly know him as the paid servant of the copyright industry)?

cptroot 1 hour ago||
This is likely about Orin Hatch's dedication to the idea of a "balanced federal budget", to be paid for with program cuts instead of taxation.
wnevets 1 hour ago||
According this administration forever chemicals are good but vaccines for deadly diseases are bad.
thomastjeffery 1 hour ago|
Any position you take that gets people to argue with you. Engagement is the currency of politics, today more than ever.
inigyou 1 hour ago||
I never saw it through this lens before but you might be right.
estearum 1 hour ago|||
You should read Amusing Ourselves to Death. It is the single most informative book on politics I've ever read. Unfortunately the conclusion it points to is not great. But worth reading anyway!
thomastjeffery 1 hour ago|||
There's a fantastic web series that explains the whole dynamic: the alt-right playbook.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJA_jUddXvY7v0VkYRbAN...

JumpCrisscross 1 hour ago||
It’s reductive to frame this as an alt-right only phenomenon. As long as we’re subject to modern ad-fueled social media, this is the basis for all non-retail politics.
Retric 1 hour ago|||
The alt right playbook isn’t identical to other political movements because it’s facing different pressures.

Right now it’s dealing with second generation propaganda where much of the leadership believes the narrative rather than the underlying justification for that narrative. This is mitigating by the older generation retaining a great deal of power, but it creates some IMO really interesting dynamics.

JumpCrisscross 1 hour ago||
> The alt right playbook isn’t identical to other political movements

Straw man. Nobody claimed this. Just that the factor identified, politics by attention economics as a result of social media, is not unique to the alt right.

Retric 1 hour ago||
> this is the basis for all non-retail politics.

My point was there’s an internal disconnect inside the alt right movement which makes this play out in very distinct ways. Dig into say China’s political to social media connections for some wildly different dynamics.

> is not unique to the alt right

Sure, that I can agree with but it’s a long way from your earlier blanket statement.

JumpCrisscross 51 minutes ago||
> Dig into say China’s political to social media connections

China regulates social media in a way we don’t. The fundamental dynamic doesn’t apply there.

Retric 49 minutes ago||
Even the US regulates social media. UK, Germany, South Africa, and Brazil are all interesting because of just how different yet similar a role social media plays in politics.

First past the post vs representative representation create some really interesting points of divergence.

JumpCrisscross 43 minutes ago||
> Even the US regulates social media

Federally? Not really.

> UK, Germany, South Africa, and Brazil are all interesting because of just how different yet similar a role social media plays in politics

Could you expand on this?

Retric 3 minutes ago||
> Federally? Not really.

TikTok is just one of many examples where the federal government has played a significant role. I mean you can debate about how relevant terrorism, CSAM, etc are here, but lots of debatably minor changes still add up.

> Could you expand on this?

It’s a lot to try and summarize in a comment, but just as an example. UK elections can take place early when a coalition breaks up this places a lot more power in the hands of voters and thus social media mid cycle. In the US passing unpopular legislation early means it’s less likely to be remembered next election cycle.

thomastjeffery 1 hour ago|||
That's a reduction that isn't being made.

This is a playbook that was utilised by the alt-right first, and adopted by nearly everyone else; particularly (though not exclusively) Republicans in the US, followed by most conservative organizations around the world.

blipvert 1 hour ago||
Some brass neck coming from the Daily Mail who championed Andrew Wakefield.
daft_pink 44 minutes ago||
But what about the stolen legos?
pstuart 2 hours ago||
Pro tip for my fellow graybeards: get a measles booster if you were born before 1976! Even then, it might not hurt if you are in an area where the risk is high.

Disclaimer: I am an internet rando -- talk to your doctor.

lanstin 1 hour ago|
I asked for that and they gave me an antibody titre, and I still have enough to be safe from measles.
bethekidyouwant 1 hour ago||
“marking the latest and longest-lasting series of measles outbreaks in the US since last year as health officials panic.“

Having trouble parsing this one.

jmyeet 1 hour ago||
The CDC has a measles tracker that includes the number of annual cases since 1985 [1]. Measles was officially "eliminated" in the US in 2000. Technically it still has that status but outbreaks like this caused by low vaccination rates are threatening it [2], which is what the article is referring to.

I'm old enough to have lived with Y2K. It's not really talked about much nowadays and I suspect a good number of people don't even know about it but leading up to 2000, everybody knew about it. By 1998 it was something you'd see on the news. Anyway, a ton of work went into eliminating Y2K issues and when 2000 happened, everything kinda kept on working.

Lots of people looked at that and unironically said that Y2K was a hoax. I actually wonder if this was a significant contribution to the distrust in authority that contributed to the rise of anti-vaxxers. To be fair, that did start before 2000. The disgraced former doctor Andrew Wakefield blew up in the late 1990s over the UK's triple jab and his effort to sell an alternative, which failed.

Polio (effedtively eliminated in most countries), smallpox, measles, Guinea worm (due for elimination in the coming years), etc didn't disappear on their own. Australia is on track to eliminate cervical cancer by 2035 due to the widespread adoption of the HPV vaccine [3].

Sometimes it's hard not to feel like we live on the dumbest timeline.

[1]: https://www.cdc.gov/measles/data-research/index.html

[2]: https://www.kff.org/other-health/measles-elimination-status-...

[3]: https://www.health.gov.au/ministers/the-hon-rebecca-white-mp...

fluoridation 1 hour ago|
>Lots of people looked at that and unironically said that Y2K was a hoax.

You're committing a fallacy of equivocation. "Y2K" has two distinct meanings:

1. A software bug related to date handling that could cause incorrect behavior that was unpredictable in the specifics but bounded in the kind and extent of damage it could cause.

2. A software bug that could cause the collapse of society.

You might or might not remember this, but prior to the turn of the millennium there were plenty of people regularly talking about Y2K using the latter meaning. When people say that Y2K was a hoax, they're saying that the second meaning was not something that was ever within the realm of possibility, not that Y2K would not have caused any problems whatsoever.

BurningFrog 1 hour ago||
Around 20% of people have a fear of needles. Around 4% have a clinical phobia, often intense enough to induce fainting.

I suspect a lot of "vaccine skepticism" is just an expression of such needle phobia.

Maybe developing more needle free vaccine delivery mechanisms would solve a lot of this problem. I have much doubt about arguing people out of phobias.

tzs 49 minutes ago||
I don't see any evidence that the level of fear of needles is different now from what it was 10, 20, 30 or more years ago, so it is hard to see how it could be a significant factor in falling vaccination rates now.
driverdan 1 hour ago||
It's not. It's scientific ignorance combined with lies (Wakefield) and misinformation. There may be some small percentage of people who completely avoid injections but most people who understand vaccines accept the benefits outweigh the short term fear / pain of needles.
gigatexal 1 hour ago||
While both sides of the political spectrum have crazies in them that are skeptical of vaccines let it be known that this latest insanity is being promulgated by red states and red politicians who are showing themselves to be just the biggest science denying idiots the world has ever seen
nosioptar 1 hour ago||
What's craziest to me is that I know lifelong Mormons that left the church because the last CEO, a surgeon, was pro vaccine.
jeffbee 1 hour ago||
Horseshoe theory enters the chat. I associate vaccine refusal with the ultra-crunchy Marin County unschoolers and other sequelae of the 1960s. Of course, I understand these people to be reactionary conservatives, but they describe themselves as progressives.

This time series suggests, however, that Marin has handed the torch to its MAGA neighbors. https://vax.edsource.org/school?schoolCode=6988448&schoolNam...

yieldcrv 1 hour ago|
“What did children do before vaccines!?”

They died, Kayleigh. There were just 9 other siblings to see who survived

inigyou 1 hour ago|
Well, good news to that, birth control might be outlawed soon...
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