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Posted by mhb 13 hours ago

Lift Challenge(www.darpa.mil)
32 points | 42 comments
stratosgear 53 minutes ago|
Hate that "warfighter" has entered our vocabulary. It's so kitsch...
sysreq_ 1 hour ago||
Been working this for a few months now. It’s not a crazy hard problem - but it does break the mold of distance and speed taking priority over capacity. If you have any questions feel free to ask. I can get into the pros/cons of all the various options and tuning knobs.
stevage 54 minutes ago||
Yeah I'd be interested to hear more about what the options might be. Also curious why it is that DARPA thinks this is solvable, but no one has come close yet.
sysreq_ 37 minutes ago||
The tunable influences on a rotor are primarily velocity (rotation speed) and surface area (radius). Conceptually it’s more similar to something like a human powered helicopter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AeroVelo_Atlas) than you might expect.
AndrewKemendo 57 minutes ago||
Why do you find it ethically ok to continue to support the Department of Defense/War?
bob1029 9 hours ago||
> Competitors must create an aircraft that is both lightweight and powerful – lifting at least 4x its weight while flying a 5-nautical-mile circuit course.

I'd make it 50NM. 5 is way too easy to bullshit with edge case engineering. Alternatively, set a minimum payload capacity of something like 100kg.

Legend2440 57 minutes ago||
From the rules:

>110 pounds is the minimum payload weight to receive a qualifying score.

TeMPOraL 9 hours ago|||
Maybe "edge case engineering" is precisely what they're looking for? Get people to think about beating the rules with cheesy strategies, in hopes some of those could, with some cleverness, scale up and evolve into proper, broad-range solution - or at least become a key previously-missing component of one. But even if it can't, very narrow capabilities can still be useful too; military isn't beyond doing silly things if they offer enough tactical advantage (enough to offset extra burden on logistics, at least).
echoangle 1 hour ago|||
How would you build a bullshit solution to move 2.5 pound around a 5 mile course (maneuvering) with a vehicle weight below 0.63 pound? I think if you solve that it’s not a bullshit solution but actually useful.
xnx 9 hours ago||
Giant hot air balloon for lift + 4 rotors for steering? It wouldn't be fast, but it might work [in low wind conditions].
echoangle 1 hour ago|||
https://www.darpa.mil/research/challenges/lift/rules

Forbidden in 3.7

mhb 5 hours ago|||
Rules exclude that approach.
childintime 7 hours ago||
CATL is working on 12000 Wh/kg air batteries, they will solve this problem, give them the prize.
uberex 1 hour ago||
Hydrogen-filled balloon wins
sysreq_ 51 minutes ago||
The container required to hold 100 m^3 of compressed gas easily breaks your weight limit. Viable but not viable given the rules.
le-mark 56 minutes ago|||
Not allowed by the rules.
emsign 10 hours ago||
The military is waking up to the need to adapt frontline logistics. With killrates of 90% for traditional trucks in the Ukraine war, without resupply missions by UAVs/UGVs holding positions is impossible now.
fc417fc802 10 hours ago|
If the truck killrate is 90% what is it for troop transports? How do infantry get in and out of position?
blini-kot 9 hours ago|||
on foot (not 20km, usually its something like 3-5km AFAIK, 20km is the width of both sides strongpoints + no-mans-land between), or on some fast and agile one-way craft: motorcycles, buggies, e-bikes

the key idea is that you need something which can get you onto the enemy position either before hunter drones take off, or that a drone won't take out the whole complement, hence the uselessness of trucks

going on foot is not really due to the human wave nature of the attacks, but rather its like WW1 stosstruppen - they use whatever cover they can find and a squad of 4 on foot is much easier to go through bushes used as cover or when weather is not suitable for flying

of note here is that trucks were not really used for transport on the tactical level on the frontline, however lately (with drones from destinus) logistics runs in the rear have also become a problem even 100km+ deep - thats where the 90% killrate figure comes from

fc417fc802 6 hours ago||
> however lately (with drones from destinus) logistics runs in the rear have also become a problem even 100km+ deep

That is quite interesting but in light of that my original question remains (except shifted 100 km back) what about troop transport? Are the combatants suffering a 90% killrate on all their large vehicles near the front or if not then what is special about logistics runs?

sneezychl 10 hours ago||||
> How do infantry get in and out of position?

They don't. Life expectancy of a Russian on the front line is hours. You just send in another wave.

fc417fc802 10 hours ago||
If that were the case then there wouldn't be anyone there to receive the resupply to begin with.
lukan 10 hours ago||
Also .. if that were the case russia would not find volunteers anymore, as the large majority of russian soldiers in Ukraine are there by free will, not because they were force drafted.

Edit, I forgot, most are not aware of that:

https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-ukraine-conscripts-war-combat...

KptMarchewa 9 hours ago||||
On foot, walking 20km+ to the position.
torginus 9 hours ago||||
Quads and dirt bikes afaik.
lukan 9 hours ago|||
Armored carriers if avaiable.
jauntywundrkind 11 hours ago||
This is being announced to us or everyone right now? It's only around 10 weeks away: that seems surprisingly close. Have some folk already been made aware & have they had time to build for this DARPA Challenges? Generally I think of them as longer running challenges.
mhb 5 hours ago||
I'm looking forward to the DARPA Challenge to create a service where you can sign up to be emailed about new challenges. This one started October, 2025. More details at https://www.darpa.mil/research/challenges/lift/competitors

"Phase 1 | Launch

October 2025

Special Notice publishing (Oct. 23): DARPA publishes a Special Notice to broadly announce the Lift Challenge and solicit innovative design concepts.

Website launches (Oct. 23): DARPA publishes a Special Notice to broadly announce the Lift Challenge and solicit innovative design concepts.

Rules and prize announcement (Oct. 23): Detailed draft rules and prize structure are announced, specifying objective and subjective judging criteria."

fc417fc802 10 hours ago|||
> Generally I think of them as longer running challenges.

Given how outlandish the ratio requirement is compared to currently available products I expect this one will be recurring for at least a few years similar to what happened with the self driving challenge 20ish years ago.

ThunderBee 11 hours ago||
this competition was announced October last year. IIRC registration ended sometime Q1 this year.
Schlagbohrer 10 hours ago|
Darpa.mil got slashdotted? Wow. The folks who invented the internet...
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