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Posted by zh3 3 days ago

Canyon HUD helmet for road riding(media-centre.canyon.com)
109 points | 130 comments
wxw 1 day ago|
So I started biking recently and was hunting for helmets.

And turns out Virgina Tech does a bunch of helmet impact testing and maintains a ranking list https://www.helmet.beam.vt.edu/. The latest helmets have a releasable layer that absorbs (converts rotational energy?) more impact.

This HUD is pretty slick. In a way, it's more preventative (avoiding accidents) vs. reactive (absorbing impact in an accident) safety which sounds nice.

Drunk_Engineer 1 day ago||
99% of bike fatalities involve car crashes. There is no styrofoam helmet which will protect against that, and the VaTech test notably does not model that type of crash.

To my knowledge, the only group that tried to test bike helmets against a car is Volvo -- and all helmets failed.

usrusr 1 day ago|||
The key service performed by a cycling helmet is not turning a death situation into a permanently maimed situation (they do that, but that's a very rare occurrence), it's turning a life changing injury situation into a situation of some fractured bones that will be almost forgotten two months later. The life and death part is overrated.

I guess one reason people are so focused on that is because it's easy to quantify.

rnewme 1 day ago||
X-Rays of Rob Pike's Shoulder http://herpolhode.com/rob/xray.html
usrusr 1 day ago||
Yeah, there are clavicle fractures that clearly don't need any surgery, but when in doubt, always slap on some titanium. Just try to get rid of the plate before the next fracture opportunity, because then you'll get an AC joint separation instead of a fracture and that stuff won't grow back. Ask me how I know, I had surgery to swap a fracture plate for an AC plate (those AC plates really, really suck)
robin_reala 23 hours ago||||
99% of bike fatalities involve car crashes.

US or globally? Got any stats to link to on that?

jibal 1 day ago||||
https://www.facs.org/about-acs/statements/statement-on-bicyc...

Helmets reduce the risk of head injury by 48%, traumatic brain injury by 53%, facial injury by 23%, and fatal injury by 34%.2 Pediatric non-helmeted bikers have a 3-fold higher risk of serious head injury compared to helmeted bikers;3 one study suggests that helmet use may reduce the risk of head injury by 83%.4

Bicycle-related head injuries and deaths have decreased in states that have enacted bicycle helmet laws.5

Larger effects are found when legislation applies to all cyclists than when it applies to children only. 6

Drunk_Engineer 1 day ago||
"one study suggests that helmet use may reduce the risk of head injury by 83%"

That one study has been thoroughly debunked...yet decades later it still gets cited.

https://www.seattlebikeblog.com/2013/06/04/feds-no-longer-ba...

jibal 20 hours ago|||
That's not what the ACS cited; this is: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10796827/
kakacik 22 hours ago|||
Yeah some random blog from keen bikers is really debunking it all globally, including common sense.

I don't get this fanatical defense of no-helmet-at-all-fucking-cost stance many here often express. I personally know a person who died in bike accident helmet-less, she went head first due to slamming front brake too hard, straight on the head on tarmac, no complex situation, it was more than enough.

I had similar situation - new xc bike bought cca 2007, for the first time buying helmet, spent whole childhood and adulthood without one. Within 3 weeks, I had to slam brakes on narrow winding forest path due to my GF stopping abruptly behind the corner. Don't have memory of that situation, remember opening eyes while laying on the ground, looking at crumpled helmet and visor, and seeing how my forehead went perfectly into a sharp stone sticking out of the ground, not much cca 5cm. More than enough to kill me, and GF told me I hit the ground with quite a bit of force.

I have friends with broken collar bones, shoulders, wrists, scars on heads, from various common bike situations, mostly in the city. Many were skeptics, all of them wear helmets now (sometimes due to hard push from their SO). Most of our friends are doctors due to my wife being one, every single one of them had to do some time in emergency in biggest Swiss hospital, and every single one of them had seen rough head injuries including death from all those folks who swore to never wear helmet, it limits their view (bullshit), their senses (huh?) and so on.

Every single sport facing death risk is maximizing their survival chances by smart behavior and better equipment, which often include helmets. But somehow these folks feel like (since this is hard emotional debate, not factual one) they are outside normal risk envelope thats valid for every single living thing on Earth.

But sure, don't wear the helmet, but lets agree you will cover full lifetime costs of any injury treatment to head/neck/shoulders, including all after care due to permanent disabilities. And don't whine when your kids die because daddy was a bit fanatic and picked up wrong hill to wage their insecurities/arrogance battle on.

/rant

jibal 21 hours ago||
Yeah, it's funny that some guy who baselessly claims that "99% of bike fatalities involve car crashes" (when people say "99%", odds are that they are pulling it out of their nether regions) then says that a study cited by the American College of Surgeons (which only says that "one study suggests") "has been thoroughly debunked", offering a citation that doesn't say that. What it does say is that the number from the study hasn't been replicated and other studies consistently show lower numbers. How much lower? It doesn't say. But one thing that is clear is that our drunken correspondent is himself highly prone to exaggeration.

And he notably has nothing to say about any of the other numbers and consequences mentioned by the ACS.

P.S. The 1989 "debunked" study isn't even what ACS cited! Their citation was an overview paper that used a broad range of studies: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10796827/

adammarples 19 hours ago||||
Looks like 99% of the bulletholes are in the wings here...
Theodores 1 day ago|||
The helmet business is amazing, and proof that one is born every minute. It deserves to be shown how many logical fallacies there are. Top of the list is anecdotal evidence, everyone with a mouth can tell you about someone that had their life saved by magic styrofoam.

There is a grain of truth to the anecdotal claims. But, even then, this is very much an imagined grain of truth. What makes it fun is if you work for a specialist bicycle shop or up the chain, distributing thousands of helmets. With customer interaction at the showroom level, fitting hundreds of helmets, then selling gazillions at B2B, the question has to be asked, where are the broken ones, the one sent back for money off, as a replacement discount?

Indoctrination into the polystyrene club is also very easy. Customer buys new bicycle, customer gets upsold a helmet, as an easy win. The far more practical high vis jacket costs $5 and you make no profit on that, whereas the $50+ polystyrene is just money for the taking.

The testing was originally to a SNELL standard, but the helmets were too heavy. So manufacturers switched to the lame self-test consumer testing, 'trust us bro'. This became the new benchmark, anything aiming at SNELL or other meaningful test just did not survive the market.

Hence I keep it simple. If cycling for conspicuous leisure purposes (fitness, racing, stunts) then get the helmet and make sure the straps are tight. You will need it for organised events so you might as well get used to wearing it.

If not cycling for conspicuous leisure purposes, but merely for transport, whether that be the commute or errands, then you don't need a helmet. Get the lights, mudguards and high vis instead.

I am learning the counter-logical-fallacies, so I can counter the life saved anecdote with quality nonsense that has the same logical fallacies. For example, "I know a true Scotsman that has been cycling every day for fifty years without a helmet. Once he got hit by a car and his life was saved because he was not wearing an ill-fitting helmet, he would have been strangled by the straps had he been wearing a helmet, plus the driver would have given him less room, so the accident would have been far worse."

I digress, as for the article, the helmet is excellent for conspicuous leisure cycling. Now give me your money!

hgomersall 23 hours ago||
Of course, wearing a helmet is a choice and many get on just fine without it. I've come off my bike enough times where my helmet prevented a nasty bump to the head to wear one, but I suspect I'd have survived just fine without it. I view my helmet as insurance against my own incompetence - slipping on a wet manhole cover for example. For context I ride thousands of km a year for transport, but have done much riding as a conspicuous leisure activity too. I just wear a helmet and I'm not really bothered by it.
mft_ 1 day ago|||
> And turns out Virgina Tech does a bunch of helmet impact testing and maintains a ranking list https://www.helmet.beam.vt.edu/

Thanks for sharing. Interesting to see my Giro (with MIPS) has... 3 stars. Hmmm.

Rebelgecko 1 day ago|||
Fwiw they changed their ranking system a year or two ago in a way that moved a bunch of formerly 5 star helmets to 3 stars.

Too many helmets hit the old five star threshold, so to differentiate it's now based on relative performance (the x% best helmets get 5 stars) instead of static thresholds.

Scoundreller 1 day ago||||
MIPS is a liner that makes the same helmet a bit better.

A crappy helmet with MIPS is a slightly less crappy helmet that may still be worse than a great non-MIPS helmet.

Like upgrading a 1960 motor vehicle death trap’s 2 point seat belts to 3 point. It’ll help, but it’s still a death trap.

carabiner 1 day ago|||
I'm pretty convinced mips is just marketing. Hair will do the same thing. That's why in rock climbing world, petzl hasn't even bothered with it when they're usually very forward thinking about their designs (first company to do side impact testing).
necubi 1 day ago|||
MIPS is increasingly common in rock helmets. Black Diamond (anecdotally the most common brand I see in the US) now has it in their higher end models, and Mammut as well.
carabiner 15 hours ago|||
Petzl makes better helmets than BD. They pioneered the ultralight foam kind with the sirocco that everyone (including BD and Mammut) copied. Yet they still don't care about MIPS.
kakacik 23 hours ago|||
Just checked my BD climbing helmet I bought few years ago (seems like Mips Capitan model based on design).

Considered these things a gimmick (any technical equipment bought has list of various tech used within, I generally ignore that by default since I have no idea what each means), happy to see move for more safety in this area. Even small steps matter.

I will climb in big heat wave we have here in Europe now this evening, more sweaty = more slippery on polished rock crags, risk is always not as far as we like to think.

hgomersall 23 hours ago||||
It does feel like a thing that has never been properly validated. It's a good market to push this in because, well, why wouldn't you spend 10% more to be a little bit safer?
mmooss 1 day ago||||
> Hair will do the same thing.

VA Tech (and others, IIRC) has years of empirical tests that show otherwise. What is your comment based on?

Edit: In fact, if I understand your analysis, humans won't get concussions at all.

loeg 1 day ago||
VA's test dummy doesn't have hair.
mmooss 1 day ago||
That's not a basis for your claim.
loeg 1 day ago||
What? GP's claim is that hair provides a similar benefit. VA is simply not testing heads with hair on them -- their tests can't "show otherwise" (your claim).
mmooss 11 hours ago||
> GP's claim is that hair provides a similar benefit.

GP provides no evidence for that. VA Tech not addressing it (if it's true that they don't - I have no reason to believe it) is not evidence. VA Tech also doesn't address my theory that microscopic super-intelligent aliens affect helmet response.

kaikai 1 day ago||||
Thank you for this comment. I paid a little extra to get a helmet with mips but didn’t even think about my (long) hair serving the same function.
throwaway173738 1 day ago||||
I’m bald on top
snovv_crash 1 day ago|||
Exactly. Hair and scalp. Evolution already made a MIPS system. The thing lacking it was the test dummies that Virginia Tech uses, so now they recommend we put it in helmets too.
arrowleaf 1 day ago|||
Not having my hair and scalp act as the MIPS system is worth the $20 extra to me.
hgomersall 23 hours ago|||
I think they will already act like that, MIPS or not. Stick a helmet on your head, now wiggle it. It moves really quite a bit, unless you like to wear it so tight you get a headache.
loeg 1 day ago|||
Is it worth helmets that are 100g heavier and don't breathe as well, though?
enjeyw 1 day ago||
I think that’s a false dichotomy.

My Lazer Genesis Helmet is a MIPs and it’s the lightest helmet Lazer made at the time.

Much more breathable than my previous helmets too.

bboozzoo 23 hours ago||
You forgot to mention it's also $200+. Some folks buy bicycles for less than that.
Scoundreller 1 day ago|||
Or the ground being low traction: dusty/dirt/wet. Harder to control what you land on, but will diminish MIPS’ ROI in many situations.
mmooss 1 day ago||
If ruling out risks by a priori is a solution, why wear a helmet at all? Maybe you won't hit your head when you fall. Maybe you'll land in water or on a satin pillow (low friction).
Scoundreller 1 day ago||
Not ruling out anything but pointing out MIPS’ benefits will be poorer than portrayed in the lab in many realistic situations.

Sure, buy all the safety equipment you can afford that has any possible benefit.

What’s better: a $15 more expensive bike light or a $15 more expensive helmet with MIPS?

neves 1 day ago|||
For $15, everybody should buy both. It's a non issue
mmooss 1 day ago|||
> MIPS’ benefits will be poorer than portrayed in the lab in many realistic situations

How are they testing it in the lab? How do concussions work in realistic situations (is there one way?)? What is the distribution of realistic situations?

Maybe the benefits are better in realistic situations; maybe the lab tests are more aggressive than reality or the results are interpreted conservatively (because scientists spending years on something might have thought of a 30-second hot take), ...

affyboi 17 hours ago|||
Big shoutout to this study! Highly recommend donating if you get any value from these lists

> The latest helmets have a releasable layer that absorbs (converts rotational energy?) more impact.

MIPS? Or is there something newer

CobaltFire 1 day ago|||
I've posted that to HN before and it never gets traction. It's too bad; it's an excellent resource.
mmooss 1 day ago|||
Last I knew, several years ago, Virginia Tech tested for concussion prevention and the layer that 'slips' on impact was called the MIPS layer. (Please correct me if that's changed.)

That is important and useful, and is best used in combination with other testing: Bicycling also has many other and more serious risks to cyclist head, including skull fractures, brain damage, and death.

Consumer Reports is another great source (better one IMHO); in their labs they do empirical testing for other outcomes of ~150 helmets, and provide a comprehensive guide to buying helmets:

https://www.consumerreports.org/health/bike-helmets/

In Consumer Reports’ tests, we strap helmets onto “head forms” that simulate the size of a human head, then drop them 14 mph onto a flat anvil to find out how well they withstand impact. An electronic sensor inside the head form monitors the force that would be transmitted to a rider’s skull in an accident.

To ensure the helmet will stay in place during an accident, we test the strength of the chinstraps, attachment points, and buckles by dropping a weight that’s 8¾ pounds and 2 feet so that it yanks on the straps to simulate the force of a crash.

Our testers also evaluate each helmet for ventilation, fit adjustments, ease of use, and other features.

dominotw 1 day ago|||
oh yea skiing and mountian biking helmets have had mips for years
neves 1 day ago||
T Schumacher, the fórmula 1 champion, would be alone if he was using a MIPS helmet
neves 1 day ago|||
Would we alive
dominotw 1 day ago|||
i think he scrwed holes into helment to setup his go pro
tonymet 1 day ago||
MIPS is great but every layer is a tradeoff with venting. without MIPS the vents allow air onto your scalp. with MIPS you effectively have a plastic shower cap over your head, beneath the EVA foam insulator.

I'm anti MIPS

ctidd 1 day ago|||
There are multiple MIPS systems. The early ones were like you described, with a distinct feeling of too much plastic. Newer ones (e.g. Integra) are much more seamless. There are also other companies doing different types of rotational tech, like Lazer with an integral foam-based shearing design.

If you have only tried first-gen MIPS, I recommend giving it another shot.

tonymet 12 hours ago||
thanks that's actually helpful. I wasn't aware of the revisions. i have a 2023/2024 POC with mips. I'm guessing it's gen whatever. I'm sure a lot of people don't mind it. I ride a lot and sweat a lot so I'm more sensitive to airflow than most.
PpEY4fu85hkQpn 1 day ago|||
I'm looking at my 2 MIPS helmets right now and your comment is complete nonsense. If anything the MIPS layer will allow for more breathability.
tonymet 12 hours ago||
how does a plastic liner improve breathability? the foam layer has clearance over the scalp/ hair. The mips layer sits over the scalp and prevents airflow.
akersten 1 day ago||
No mention of a built in camera makes this a total non starter for me. If I'm going all in on an AI helmet it better be able to record front and back so my next of kin can get a payout from whatever pavement princess flattened me in the unprotected bike lane.
tracerbulletx 1 day ago||
Its part of a whole prototype system, the cameras would be on the bike, it also mentions radar and all kinds of things. Basically just building a whole sensor suite into a bike platform. Idk how serious they are about it. https://media-centre.canyon.com/en-INT/266864-futuristic-pro...
supertroop 1 day ago||
Not even a rear-view mirror. Which is the second most important piece of safety gear after a helmet.
Rebelgecko 1 day ago||
I'm surprised it doesn't tie into taillight radars. I've been intrigued by those but I don't want to deal with also buying a bike computer to see its output (plus the brand that's considered the "best" still uses micro-usb)
lp251 1 day ago||
the new varia is usb-c
Rebelgecko 4 hours ago||
Finally!!!
SequoiaHope 1 day ago||
To anyone who wants to ride more safely I cannot recommend enough this simple $20 mirror which I find so valuable that I buy extra and hand them out to friends and strangers to help keep them safer. A mirror mounted on your glasses or a similar mirror affixed to your helmet (close to your eyes and mounted on your head) allows for a large field of view that you can easily steer to see behind you.

I ride on the streets of Oakland every single day and situational awareness is critical. The single biggest thing you can do for safety is watch each car as it approaches behind you for its speed and trajectory. Anyone approaching too close or too fast is a bad sign and with a mirror you can more easily avoid them.

These are also available on Amazon and I am not in any way affiliated I just think they’re good life saving technology:

https://takealookactive.com/

laluser 1 day ago||
Obviously the mirror gets the job done, but I use Garmin Varia radar hooked up to my bike computer and you can see cars behind you and their velocity is displayed as different colors. It’s way more expensive, but amazing for road biking.
EsotericAlgo 1 day ago|||
I’ll second this, it’s absolutely a game changer. I’ve used handlebar mounted mirrors and the like but I’ll never willingly go back.

I tend to prefer helmet mounted and I glue them on which isn’t my favorite thing to do on a new helmet. It’s also a bit frustrating when you find yourself cycling in a country that drives on the opposite side.

I do find that on very long tours the week following I’m looking where I’d expect the mirror to be when I want to look behind me.

bboozzoo 23 hours ago|||
This looks like a choice is a serious eye injury if you roll is something you're looking for. Why not buy a handlebar mirror like this one https://cateye.com/intl/products/accessories/BM-45/ I have one on each of my bikes, road/gavel/fitness. Dirt cheap, gives very good rear visibility and very compact size.
SequoiaHope 10 hours ago||
Handlebar mirrors won’t give you as much field of view and you can’t steer them with your head.
belZaah 1 day ago||
Radars do this better. They can warn you from much further away and do not require for you to keep an eye out - there’s audible cues.
mvkel 1 day ago||
I'm not sure who this is for. It's a time trial style helmet, but isn't very useful for time trialing. And it's not a commuter helmet. And it's not a road riding helmet, as it has no breathability. Is this a defensive patent thing?
merelysounds 1 day ago||
Note, they say it is based on their existing helmet[1].

[1]: https://www.canyon.com/en-de/clothing/helmets/canyon-cfr/can...

notatoad 1 day ago||
it's just a thing to show off in their trade show booth.

maybe there will be some engineer on the project who learns something useful while working on this that can be applied to some actual project, but this is pretty clearly not an actual product that they intend to sell in anything more than single-digit quantities

nntwozz 1 day ago||
Oh no I forgot to charge my helmet.

Also, helmets are meant to be replaced every couple of years as the materials deteriorate (UV/heat) and the protection dissipates.

As we like to say, dentist helmet.

neves 1 day ago||
https://www.consumerreports.org/health/bike-helmets/when-you...

Not necessarily:

But if you really like your old helmet—and it’s in good condition—one scientific study tested older helmets and showed that holding on to one for longer won’t necessarily put you at significant risk. Randy Swart, executive director of the nonprofit Bicycle Helmet Safety Institute and former vice chair of the helmet and headgear subcommittee for ASTM International, a nonprofit, voluntary standards-setting organization, says that his own helmet is “much older than that,” though he adds that there may be other good reasons to get a new helmet, such as more protective technology included in some newer models.

Scoundreller 1 day ago|||
> UV

How can I get people to stop laughing at me for tinfoiling my helmet?

supertroop 1 day ago||
I’m so done with technology’s “answer to a question nobody asked.” Like bluetooth derailleurs. Utter garbage. The only down side is that this wave of technocrap wipes out shelf space for analog cyclists. Hard enough to find a decent triple front derailleur, let alone 48-spoke hubs with a cartridge. Now this crap.
Gigachad 1 day ago||
Wasn't the triple front derailleur basically obsoleted by putting more gears on the rear? All the talk has been around single front gears and 12-13 rear gears. None of that has to do with electronics.
NegativeLatency 1 day ago||
Even if you put more on the rear you can still get 50% more options if you add a 3rd front cog.

It's not needed on everything but I really appreciate the extra options on my recumbent and touring bike.

Gigachad 1 day ago||
Most of those options are overlapping and redundant though. Only the total range really matters, by simplifying the front the whole system becomes easier to use and mechanically less complicated.
Wicher 22 hours ago||
Wear on the chain is greatly increased though on a 1x12 versus a 2x10, because of alignment.

Tolerances on a 1x setup are also much tighter, not ideal for long distance cycletrekking adventures.

Also, with a front derailer, dropping the chain to a smaller cog in the front to get to a lighter gear results in much happier shifting than having to lift the chain to a larger cog on the rear derailer when going uphill.

When MTB racing you can really get some advantage out of shifting combination discipline using a front derailer, when going from a downhill into an uphill.

I'm sad it's hard to find a 2x setup on new bicycles nowadays :-/

ethagnawl 1 day ago||
I'm sure I'm just being a crotchety old graybeard but I ride my bikes to get away from this crap. I do use Strava to track my rides on my watch but I don't even look at it until the ride is over.
mc3301 1 day ago||
I don't have strava or anything. I don't even know how long my rides are, my best times, my altitude. I just go for a ride; successfully capturing the exact feeling of riding since I was a teenager.
dieselgate 16 hours ago|||
I personally find strava culture to generally be toxic and annoying, though the above poster seems to use it in a genuine way. 8A is similar in the climbing community. Similar to Github: what starts out as an honest need for tracking and documentation turns into a social-media-showboating circus.
klaff 17 hours ago|||
Amen
reaperducer 1 day ago||
I'm sure I'm just being a crotchety old graybeard but I ride my bikes to get away from this crap.

Don't apologize for being a human being. The world needs more of them.

KeplerBoy 1 day ago||
Kind of surprising this stuff still is little more than a concept. 12 years after google launched and scrapped it's glasses there are still no well established alternatives for cycling, which is such an obvious market. Everyone is wearing glasses, everyone has a computer mounted to their handlebar, let's integrate them together already.
loeg 1 day ago||
It might make more sense to put this in the glasses than attached to the helmet, which is ultimately a consumable. But I basically agree with sibling comment that no one really wants this. (I race bikes and know a lot of other racers.)
KeplerBoy 1 day ago|||
Well the helmet is also a consumable (you should swap them every few years and of course after every crash). But having the visor integrated in the visor is awkward.
Scoundreller 1 day ago|||
I’ve the same opinion between heated gloves and pogies.

Pogies are great but don’t do you any good off of your bike.

this_user 1 day ago|||
And everyone will bully you on the group ride if you show up with this.
jeffbee 1 day ago|||
There are HUD glasses for triathletes, and have been for years. That's why the ANT+ "extended display" profile exists. These HUD glasses have been on the market for at least 15 years. UCI rules prohibit them, which is why they are marketed to triathletes.
tokai 1 day ago|||
With UCI ruling on bike computer sizes in the name of reducing rider distractions, I bet that HUD glasses would be outlawed with post hast if they became a thing in the pro peloton.
freejazz 1 day ago||
That's a solution in search of a problem that does not exist. This would, at best, be useful for someone doing a time trial. I don't see road racers using it in any other context.
foo12bar 1 day ago||
> Its primary function – setting it apart from other eyewear data systems – is to provide instantly visible alerts about the behaviour other road users (e.g. such as brake light activation, *crash detection*, etc)

Just what I need, when a car nearby me crashes into a physical object, my vizor helmet is shouting "Bonzai!!!" with lighting bolts everywhere.

oflannabhra 15 hours ago||
While this is cool, I’m really surprised that eyeglass or sunglasses manufacturers haven’t doubled down on simple HUDs. In swimming there are the FORM goggles [0], but everything in the sunglasses space is focused on voice and cameras (looking at you Meta).

I really just want a basic, simple HUD that can display speed, distance, pace, HR from other sources. I don’t care about it being standalone, I already have a bike computer, phone, and watch.

- [0] - https://www.formswim.com/products/smart-swim-2-lt-goggles

Gualdrapo 1 day ago|
The title is a bit confusing imho, it seems it fits more for time trialing rather than general road riding? I can't see no vents whatsoever, my incredibly sweaty noggin would soak tons of sweat into that thing
loeg 1 day ago|
It's not intended to be a real helmet. It's a prototype / marketing exercise. It is inevitably too expensive and/or heavy to be a practical helmet.
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