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Posted by thunderbong 7 days ago

22-year-old Mozart's handwritten notebook unearthed in 'major discovery'(www.classicfm.com)
260 points | 97 commentspage 2
listenfaster 1 day ago|
The library where the discovery was made:

https://www.bnf.fr/en/actualitesEN/discovery-unpublished-aut...

I’m hoping that a full scan appears in the archive linked at the bottom of the page. I’m a composer and still hand-notate in a notebook. It’s so cool to the penmanship of someone writing in notebooks so quickly yet cleanly. In case you didn’t read, the contents are primarily exercises in composition where Mozart began a passage, the student continued, and Mozart corrected / guided the students work where needed. So there’s a higher percentage of Mozart in the pieces here than not. Like Brundlefly.

MyHonestOpinon 1 day ago||
While interesting. Is it a 'Major discovery' ?
cvoss 1 day ago||
Mozart is among the most famous Western composers, and, like others of his stature, all his extant manuscripts have been cataloged and studied extensively. To find a previously unknown manuscript is a major event in that scholarship.
Mistletoe 1 day ago|||
They aren’t making more Mozart notebooks so probably.
isjcjwndkwmds 23 hours ago||
Why wouldn’t it be? Heck, how could it not be?
mrighele 1 day ago||
I love his handwriting style. I wonder if it was the first draft or a copy [1]

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkqfpkTTy2w

coliveira 1 day ago||
Composers were also handwriting masters. Bach also had incredible handwriting, there's a youtube channel about it.
SoftTalker 1 day ago|||
Schools used to spend a lot of time on penmanship. I visited a high school where they had a wall of notes left by each senior class. In the notes from the 1950s the writing was quite refined and looked very practiced, and notes left by kids in the 2020s looked like 2nd grade printing by comparison. I don't think cursive handwriting is really even taught/required anymore.

I can imagine that in the time of Bach or Mozart that writing was a big point of emphasis in schools.

datakan 1 day ago|||
Cursive is only useful for fountain pens. It was a sign of its times and is totally pointless and even counterproductive today. I get really sick of people exclaiming how important cursive is today when everyone types and everything is printed.

"Back in my day we taught the kids cursive!!" How many of them used fountain pens? I'm guessing zero. You just wasted their time instead of teaching them something valuable.

isjcjwndkwmds 23 hours ago|||
> I'm guessing zero.

There’s your problem: guessing.

Knowing how to write cursive is a useful skill even if underutilised, heck, it’s a useful skill even if just for the artistry of it. It might be niche, it might be unnecessary, but saying it is a “waste of time” is just ridiculous.

datakan 6 hours ago||
> Knowing how to write cursive is a useful skill

No, it's not. At all

iejcjwnxkwnxjw 3 hours ago|||
Spoken like a true child of the internet. Well done.
slater 3 hours ago|||
It actually is. Very much so.
coliveira 20 hours ago|||
Cursive was and still is a fast way to write by hand. If you want to be illiterate without a computer, then you don't want to learn handwriting. But if you don't want to be illiterate without a computer, learning cursive is a fast and efficient way to do it.
datakan 6 hours ago||
Literacy and cursive have nothing to do with each other.
iejcjwnxkwnxjw 3 hours ago||
It’s a bit disingenuous of you to try and claim this when you have basically no understanding of the use of cursive nowadays. Not sure if you’re just a kid out of high school proclaiming rebel knowledge of domains you know nothing about, or just a really disingenuous person with a terrible case of arrogance, either way, you really ought to stop and reevaluate some of your positions—they are depressingly wrong.
copperx 1 day ago||||
They spent more time in penmanship class than an individual grad student spent learning LaTeX in the pre-LLM time, for reference/scale.
DFHippie 1 day ago|||
In the town where I live there are buildings from a 19th century pipe organ factory. My wife used to work in one of the buildings. The employees had scribbled various names and dates and witticisms on the walls in pencil. Their handwriting was beautiful. I was gratified that no one had thought to beautify the walls after the factory closed. In the loft above there were ancient mechanical drawings of organ parts rolled up and stored on racks, and at the end of the loft was a designer's desk still waiting for him to come back and make more drawings.
spacechild1 1 day ago||||
Beethoven certainly wasn't.
breezybottom 1 day ago||||
You've named one composer who is. I don't see where the inductive step applies.
rob74 1 day ago|||
The composers who didn't have neat handwriting are forgotten today because nobody could read their (musical) notes...
Arainach 1 day ago|||
This is simply not true. Look at Beethoven's manuscripts for instance.

https://guides.loc.gov/beethoven/manuscripts

coliveira 1 day ago|||
That's one of the reasons why he spent several years to write a single symphony.
isjcjwndkwmds 23 hours ago||
What? What does one thing have to do with the other? Heck, what is up with everyone here just making up bullshit arguments about classical composers? The heck is this nonsense!?
globular-toast 1 day ago|||
Wow. Can we even be sure we're listening to the right thing? Is it actually possible to read this unambiguously or is there an element of context when reading music, similar to how if you're reading prose the next word is probably grammatically correct and makes sense?
Fritatta 1 day ago|||
Exactly. The context makes it all pretty clear. Music has its own grammar, and particularly music of the common practice era from about 1650-1930.
ternaryoperator 1 day ago|||
The publisher was generally familiar with Beethoven’s writing and conventions. He’d prepare galleys that Beethoven would proof (and frequently edit). A substantial part of Beethoven’s known correspondence concerns corrections to galleys (and managing payments).
isjcjwndkwmds 23 hours ago||||
Such as famously the forgotten composer Ludwig von Beethoven.

Please, let’s leave the made up arguments to the LLMs.

vixen99 1 day ago|||
You can check all this out for yourself at IMSL. Tons of holograph copies there for lots of composers. https://imslp.org/wiki/Main_Page
JasonFruit 1 day ago|||
I see you've never worked your way through a manuscript by Donizetti.
jansan 1 day ago||
Let's hope it is more authentic than the Hitler Diaries[1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Diaries

dcminter 1 day ago||
Any time something of popular historical interest like this pops up I think about that.

If you've not read it then Robert Harris's (factual) book about the affair is entertaining, not least because such a broad sweep of dislikeable characters were undone by greed and folly!

spacechild1 1 day ago||
The whole affair was bizarre. At one point Kujau, the author of the fake diaries, ran out of ideas and let Hitler complain about his flatulence.

There is also a very funny German movie about it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schtonk!) The director later said that he intentionally omitted some facts about the real scandal because the audience would find it too far fetched.

dcminter 1 day ago||
I think my favourite aspect of the tale (at least as Harris tells it) is that Kujau was such a bad forger, and the recipients wanted it all to be true so badly that they skipped several opportunities to actually check!

I shall see if I can find Schtonk! with subtitles, sounds up my alley.

spacechild1 1 day ago||
Yes! Like when Kujau couldn't get the letter A, so he went with "FH" instead of "AH" for the cover initials. Heidemann convinced the people at Stern that it surely stands for "Führer Hitler" :-D

Schtonk! does a really great job at satirizing the Führerkult that was still very much present in large parts of German society.

ggm 1 day ago|||
Confiscated during the revolution, kept by the national library. That's a bit different to "forged on schoolbooks with a Bic pen" provenance-wise.
pradeshhpatel 1 day ago||
[flagged]
bell-cot 1 day ago|||
Even inside the tiny niche of the classical music history world, a book of daily exercises - written for some now-obscure student, and owned by a national library - is actually a pretty minor thing.

Very few counterfeiters bother doing nickles and dimes.

NopIdoN 1 day ago||
BTW the metal in a nickel is worth about 7 cents.
estetlinus 1 day ago||
> By coincidence, Goy had been looking at other documents Mozart had written for teaching just weeks earlier

Color me sceptical

bell-cot 1 day ago|||
He was a niche-specialty career archivist, sorting through his library's collection of stuff from the right era and area. That is the discovery story behind a rather large fraction of such documents.
estetlinus 1 day ago||
So not much a coincidence I’d say. Very much by design.
nok22kon 1 day ago|||
parallel construction
kevinten10 1 day ago||
[dead]
abstractspoon 6 days ago||
Anyone remember the Hitler diaries?
HugoMoran 1 day ago|
seems like more of a minor discovery to me
alkyon 1 day ago||
Seven previously unknown compositions for flute and harp is not minor
thrill 1 day ago||
don't fret over dark keys