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Posted by 0o_MrPatrick_o0 5 hours ago

The text in Claude Code’s “Extended Thinking” output(patrickmccanna.net)
203 points | 145 commentspage 2
segmondy 2 hours ago|
What I find sad is how much Anthropic goes to hide your data, yet they are happy to slurp up all yours and most of you are happy to hand it over. ... then they turn around and compete with you by building your products that eat into your market. Anthropic believes their reasoning tokens is a moat and that it's giving other labs an edge and that's why they are hiding it. If they really believe that is their edge, then they are in for a surprise.
mannanj 2 hours ago|
I don't think people are happy to give it over, gullible and naive maybe?
panikal 2 hours ago||
[dead]
drdexebtjl 1 hour ago||
I’ve been using OpenCode with GPT models a lot, and it always shows what it is thinking. Is that also a summary? Codex doesn’t seem to have these, even with the same models.

It’s much harder to understand _why_ a model chose a particular approach in Claude Code. Especially because Claude will happily give you hallucinated reasons if you ask in retrospect.

Recent anecdote:

I was reviewing a colleague’s PR and Opus 4.8 decided to write the new feature in a completely new module. It was unnecessarily complex. We had a hard time understanding why it chose that, and it told us that it was so we could eventually deploy it as a separate micro-service and test it independently. What?

Only after being more a lot more specific about the implementation and spending a lot more tokens, it flat out refused to simplify the code with the actual reason. It turns out a line recently added to CLAUDE.md was making it incorrectly think that the module it was originally supposed to modify was legacy code that it was forbidden to extend.

This would have been caught immediately if we could inspect its thinking process.

anuramat 5 hours ago||
no way, the contents of "reasoning_summary" are summarized?

fyi openai does the same; not really surprising or particularly evil

knollimar 4 hours ago||
Not evil but full of hubris
anuramat 2 hours ago||
I don't see any hubris in competition
_fat_santa 5 hours ago||
IMHO I've never found the entire reasoning chain that particularly useful for my work. For me having a summary is honestly better from a context management perspective. I understand why they would encrypt it though, because those reasoning chains are VERY useful if you're distilling the model.
stavros 4 hours ago|
The summary doesn't go into the context, it's for human consumption. The CoT itself goes into the context.
nomel 3 hours ago||
From my experiments with Opus and Sonnet (at least the models where you can still see COT), only the last two COT go into context.
linsomniac 3 hours ago||
I feel like I get a lot of what this article presents as "hidden" by using this process:

- "Read `description` and create a specification, implementation guide, and checklist." - "Ask clarifying questions. If any of those questions has a clear best recommendation, please select that yourself and record that in "autorecommendations.md". - "Have codex and antigravity review each of these and work to consensus."

These are the core of ~61 lines of prompting I do across 3 prompts, and I feel like the resulting artifacts describe some of the thinking. Also, some of the back-and-forth between the models feels like it gives some insight into the model "thinking".

I will say: I heavily used Fable when it was available; Opus + loops + codex and/or antigravity review is better than Fable at building things.

radarsat1 9 minutes ago||
is it strictly necessary to use different models or can you get similar results by doing the same thing but just using eg Codex in different agents & persona? curious if you've compared this
lsdmtme 2 hours ago||
What are you using exactly to have claude code natively interact with codex and antigravity?

Mind sharing your prompts?

linsomniac 1 hour ago||
Not at all, I do have a meeting here, I'll try to get it up in around 2h.
adi_pradhan 4 hours ago||
Not surprised at this. The questoins for enterprises are + where can you depend on a black box as a service? + what evals and observability do you need to deploy a black box as a service confidently? + what's the ROI (considering a total footprint of people, token spend, infrastructure, service, ops etc.)

The LLM providers will clearly evolve to be more and more opaque as their services get more capable. The frontier models may even be provided as purely internal advisor or async only so they can monitor your CoT and final answers for cyber etc.

jimmypk 4 hours ago|
[flagged]
HarHarVeryFunny 4 hours ago||
This is nothing new - these companies don't want their model's output to be useful for distillation/training, so they just give a "summary" of its thinking steps rather than the actual sequence.

RL (the basis of LLM "thinking") is a pretty crude way to achieve the appearance of reasoning given that it reinforces all the steps, including missteps, that got it to a reward. Providing a summary could be seen as form of sane-washing, making the model look more purposeful and directed than it really is!

reliablereason 4 hours ago||
Is the thinking even done in real tokens? I thought it was done using the pure residual stream. That is instead of collapsing the residual stream to a token you treat the final layers output as a vector of size d_model and use that as input for the next position in the transformer.

If that is the case thinking is not visible to us as users due to it not being done in text.

sailingparrot 2 hours ago||
Thinking is implemented as regular autoregressive generations by everyone, meaning its just regular tokens, but they appear between <thinking></thinking> special tokens which are then programmatically removed from what the user can actually see.

Idea somewhat similar to what you describe exist but they make steering/post-training/interpretation much harder.

wqaatwt 4 hours ago|||
All open model that have reasoning seem to be doing it in text tokens. Is there any indication that closed models are approaching this somehow fundamentally differently?
giancarlostoro 4 hours ago|||
Claude does all its thinking in text, its ChatGPT which does not do its reasoning in text. I believe its sort of implied / understood (?) that this is part of Claude's secret sauce over OpenAI. OpenAI will use less tokens, but Claude will be more correct, more of the time.
TeMPOraL 3 hours ago|||
I saw that idea described as a step in AI 2027 (they call it "neuralese" and eyeballing the site, it's still labeled a hypothetical/future development), but AFAIK no one implemented/deployed this yet.

EDIT:

They link to a Meta paper from 2024/2025 though: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2412.06769/.

throwuxiytayq 4 hours ago||
That would be a huge deal, meaning we've lost even our shitty, ineffective ways of monitoring agent reasoning stream. Big setback when it comes to alignment and interpretability.

I don't know about Claude, but latest GPT versions still have a readable reasoning stream. It sometimes leaks out when the model gets confused, e.g., during a tool call. If you're curious, looks simplified; less words; extremely compact. They optimize tokens. But remain readable.

nja 3 hours ago||
Claude Code 2.1.68 seems to have been the last version (before the "ctrl-o" debacle) which actually shows thinking inline. That + Opus 4.6 has been working great as a daily driver for me... all the new "safety" / "preventing misuse" pain points in the newer models and harnesses are so frustrating in comparison.
gmerc 4 hours ago|
It’s an anti distillation effort. They are scared.
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