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Posted by wespiser_2018 1 day ago

Finding the best dog treat with statistics(www.wespiser.com)
129 points | 54 comments
gwern 1 day ago|
One thing I'm not following is how the side/order bias is being handled. OP measures a IMO very large bias towards left-hand treats, but it is unclear how that is handled (ahem)? Skimming https://github.com/adamwespiser/best-dog-treat/blame/main/an... doesn't help me understand if it is being modeled as a covariate to adjust for the bias or if it was dealt with by construction (eg. by always offering pairs twice, swapping hands), or what?

Incidentally OP if you want to make it more adaptive, you can just fit the B-T model each time, and grab a posterior sample of what the best pair is, and test that, which turns out to be Thompson sampling. I did this for fun with blind taste-testing of mineral waters: https://gwern.net/water

markerz 20 hours ago||
I suspect it’s by construction, looks like they’re offering every permutation of treat choice twice.

Below, I filtered for A vs E, the top two choices. Notice how they switch left and right hand each time:

A/E :: A

E/A :: A

A/E :: E

E/A :: E

A/E :: E

wespiser_2018 11 hours ago||
Author here, yes, that's correct.

The initial set-up was to do 3 comparisons of the 5 treats (30 trials), alternate between right and left hand, then write a quick python script to randomize the order.

A bit more than halfway through the experiment, I ran the model and realized that A/D/E were the only contenders left, so I removed the B/C trials and added more A/D/E trials.

nosioptar 5 hours ago|||
Some dogs have a strong preference on right/left. I've known at least six dogs that will only shake hands with their left paw.
kokanee 5 hours ago|||
Yes, and also the presence of a window fan on that side is a big deal because the selection is based on scent. In my experience dogs appear to "like" a scent based on how strong it is, not necessarily how it is "flavored" (for examples, dogs can behave as if they love the smell of poop or skunk spray, but it's actually the powerful sensory information that they're reacting to, not a culinary desire). It seems possible to me that the dog is choosing whichever scent is more powerful.
wespiser_2018 4 hours ago||
If I repeat this experiment, I'll be a lot more careful about that, or also alternate which direction I'm standing in.

I didn't realize R/L preference was biased until I did the data analysis, and during the trials he was picking from both hands often enough that I perceived it as roughly 50% depending on the treats!

RataNova 5 hours ago|||
Yep, I have seen dogs that clearly have "a side" for certain habits, even if it is not obvious whether it is paw preference, training, comfort...
RataNova 5 hours ago|||
I liked that the post surfaced the bias instead of quietly ignoring it
wespiser_2018 1 day ago||
That's awesome! Thank you!
andrew_eu 4 hours ago||
I love it. For years with my old dog I would give him a binary choice between two treats and intuitively got a sense of his favorites as well. More satisfying to me was giving him the choice, which (maybe I'm over personifying him) I think he liked to pick his favorite. He had stomach issues which limited him to really only a few types of treats, and it was obvious which were his favorites, but it was fun anyway. I miss that dog.
jnellis 1 day ago||
My dog's favorite treat is the most expensive one. Or the one that causes the most intestinal (and therefore cleanup) issues. All it takes is a pause and some brief math to see that a lot of (good for your dog) dog treats are $16/lb. That's not even remotely the most expensive. It's cheaper to feed them straight meat. I've resorted to making my own treats. It's like $4/lb, plus you know exactly what goes into it (mostly ground turkey, yams, rice/chickpea flour).
scrtm 21 hours ago|
care to share the recipe?
jnellis 21 hours ago||
https://pdfhost.io/v/BQBcuLsPCK_dogtreats
abofh 21 hours ago||
This just feels like an excuse to give your dog a statically significant amount of treats
RataNova 5 hours ago|
Bebop: "I don't fully understand the model but I support increasing the sample size"
rkagerer 5 hours ago||
The same time every day, around 11pm, I go to the kitchen, select two different treats, say the word “choice”, and present the treats in either hand, allowing Bebop to only take one... By the time the experiment started, Bebop was used to the routine and sniffing both treats before taking one.

Winner was Pur Luv Chicken, closely followed by MON2SUN duck + rawhide. Greenies and Pork Chomps fared poorly.

CM30 1 day ago||
This makes me wonder what the research is for whether certain types or breeds of dog prefer certain dog treats, and how individual dogs might develop a preference for one kind over another. Based on this experiment it doesn't seem like the type of meat matters much, since while the top ranked treat is chicken, his second favourite seems to be the duck one.
wespiser_2018 4 hours ago||
It's pretty interesting, but Bebop is barely treat motivated, and mostly inside. Once you take him outside, especially in open areas, he becomes more interested in tracking movement and chasing things.

I believe it's explained by the job we've asked Greyhounds to do: see movement, get released, run after it. Once you let go, that's it, the dog needs to be motivated enough by the running animal or lure, and there's no chance to reinforce the loop once it starts!

tracker1 7 hours ago|||
We have 4 smaller dogs (mix of chihuahua and terriers), and they all absolutely love the greenies over anything else. One of them now has a prescribed treat and he definitely isn't happy about it, and the others won't touch it.

Hardest part is now feeding them all separate dishes at regular times every day.

RataNova 5 hours ago||
I'd guess texture and(or) smell might matter as much as the actual meat
wespiser_2018 1 day ago||
Author here: I did a quick experiment with my Greyhound, Bebop, to figure out the treat he prefers best using pair-wise comparison analyzed with the Bradley-Terry model. Same tech as Elo scores in chess, and several other places! Enjoy!
zthrowaway 14 hours ago|
Really weird question but what boots are you wearing in your blog photo? They look wide enough for my weird feet. Thanks
zerobees 23 hours ago||
In my experience, it's usually a partly-rotten deer leg found in the bushes on a nature walk.
wespiser_2018 4 hours ago|
With Bebop, it's dead birds! He also finds them, then checks the same spot for months afterwords!
thih9 1 day ago||
My dog told me to write that the set of treats is missing non bleached rawhide, other dehydrated meats (eg rabbit, goat, fish), animal parts (eg ears), and vegetables. Also, he volunteers.
buildsjets 1 day ago|
My Husky used to CRAVE little dehydrated minnows. Extra crunchy.
buildsjets 1 day ago|
The best dog treat is always the treat the OTHER dog is eating.
ses1984 21 hours ago||
My one dog hates broccoli but she will choke it down just so the other one can’t have it.
weberer 20 hours ago|||
Or cat turds
buildsjets 20 hours ago|||
Kitty roca confirmed. Our Husky was a goon for it. At least it forced us to keep the boxes clean several times a day.
nosioptar 5 hours ago||
Kitty Roca is both the best and most awful thing I've seen in ages.

There is a medicine you can put on dogs' food to make their crap taste bad to them. There might be something similar you can give kitty.

NordStreamYacht 19 hours ago|||
Good grief.

Why would you give your dog those as treats?

buildsjets 14 hours ago||
You don’t need to give it to them, they just graze at the conveniently provided buffet.
NordStreamYacht 13 hours ago||
Truffles come to mind.
savethejoy 21 hours ago||
Oh my goodness.
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