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Posted by FergusArgyll 15 hours ago

Wikipedia cofounder Larry Sanger blocked from editing Wikipedia(en.wikipedia.org)
139 points | 183 commentspage 3
TZubiri 14 hours ago|
Most of his posts and articles are about policy and criticism towards Wikipedia.

Ironically they might have amplified the reach of their articles to laymen and editors and made him a martyr in the process.

Mountain_Skies 14 hours ago|
Quite often in activist spaces, the primary goal isn't to convince others of a viewpoint or even the censor other viewpoints, though those are nice side effects. The real goal is demonstrating loyalty to the group's current core beliefs, whatever those might be on that day. In spaces where the values are in constant flux, there's a greater need to constantly reaffirm allegiance to the group's current world view.
OrvalWintermute 14 hours ago||
At best Wikipedia is a well-edited wiki of a smorgasbord, great writing, and an incredible resource that provides amazing value.

At worst it can be a hive mind echo chamber where certain views are banished to the Abyss.

Certain topics attract the latter rather than the former…

pKropotkin 12 hours ago||
Wikipedia now is a totally corrupt organization. I came across this personally when my edits regarding the recent cocaine (!) scandal involving the Russian (!) Orthodox Church (!) were canceled by a Ukrainian (!) steward. Moreover, this was done with blatant and cynical violation of the rules, with prohibited techniques, insults, and the use of sockpuppets.
ZeroGravitas 8 hours ago||
Did he explain why he returned to save/undermine Wikipedia after all this time?

Paid by evil billionaires? Or just a continuing descent into MAGA-tinged madness?

roenxi 14 hours ago||
More than whatever process was used, just looking at his user page I do think some sort of ostracism-like response was inevitable. The thing about communities like Wikipedia is when you have a group of volunteers coming together to do something the culture has to be somewhat intolerant of cultural change, otherwise it'll fall apart pretty quickly. To repeat that another way, culture defines who is part of the in- and out-group, so once the group has formed it is very slow to change or the group collapses.

I quite like what he's going for with these 9 theses - the ideas of the public rating articles or enabling competition between articles seems like a clever compromise position - but frankly I don't see how the Wikipedia community could treat this as anything other than an attack whether or not the ideas are improvements. The parallel with Martin Luther and the Catholic Church was appropriately foreshadowed by Sanger.

Organisations eventually become corrupt. Wikipedia might already be there or it might have a ways to go, who knows. But this sort of change might require a new project or some sort of schism among the Wikipedia editors, it sounds pretty radical. Especially in the post-Trump era; I expect his presidency has been a traumatic era for the English Wikipedia project.

coldpie 13 hours ago||
I mean this in a friendly way: you are falling for it. Sanger's goal here is to get low-quality sources allowed on Wikipedia to promote his personal political beliefs. This was relatively politely argued down by Wikipedia editors, but he chose to try to recruit a brigade to swing the discussion in his favor, which is not allowed. There's no attempt to improve Wikipedia going on here.
mschuster91 13 hours ago||
> I quite like what he's going for with these 9 theses - the ideas of the public rating articles or enabling competition between articles seems like a clever compromise position - but frankly I don't see how the Wikipedia community could treat this as anything other than an attack whether or not the ideas are improvements.

The problem with the "competing articles" is that the end game is quite obvious - the far-right wants to get crap like Musk's "Grokipedia" or "Conservapedia" out of the gutters where it belongs and into the brand protection of Wikipedia.

And that, frankly, is an existential threat.

textrunmax 13 hours ago||
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vrganj 14 hours ago||
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FergusArgyll 14 hours ago|
If there's one article that shows the problem with Wikipedia it's the one you're quoting and it's sister https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Marxism_conspiracy_th... which says that cultural marxism is an anti-semitic conspiracy theory.

And then you read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_School and leave confused...

Edit: for example, here's a passage from the wiki page on frankfurt school.

Adorno and Horkheimer's Dialectic of Enlightenment, written during the Institute's exile in America, was published in 1944. While retaining many Marxist insights, this work shifted emphasis from a critique of the material forces of production to a critique of the social and ideological forces brought about by early capitalism.

So, culture? and marxism?

projektfu 13 hours ago|||
It is a difference, perhaps, between Marxist cultural studies, and "Cultural Marxism", a label applied by antagonists to a large variety of activities?
vrganj 14 hours ago|||
[flagged]
FergusArgyll 14 hours ago||
Are you implying I'm a Nazi for thinking that there's a cultural component to Marxist thought some of which is present in modern culture?!

If I misunderstood your comment, I apologize

vrganj 14 hours ago||
I'm not implying you're a Nazi, but I am pointing out the historical heritage of this line of argument.

We've been here before, this exact same conspiracy theory was created by the Nazis to justify the unjustifiable.

The slight rebranding of "Cultural B̶o̶l̶s̶h̶e̶v̶i̶s̶m̶ Marxism" is what Anders Breivik used to justify his acts of terrorism.

We've gone done this road before. It doesn't lead anywhere good.

I'm not putting ill intent on you, but I would implore you to reconsider your stance on this.

FergusArgyll 13 hours ago||
I see. But there's pages about other aspects of Marxist theory some of which I'm sure was used to excuse crimes against humanity by the Nazis and other evil doers. See here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Marxism

In general Wikipedia takes an anti censorship approach regarding articles which can cause evil.

So why is the aspect of Marxism which deals with culture completely taboo and not represented? I'm not even sure if it's due to something bigger I just think the article on cultural marxism might be one of the worst on Wikipedia.

vrganj 13 hours ago||
I think the article about the conspiracy theory you linked addresses your concerns quite well, it talks about what the Frankfurt school was actually about and the way the far right has been twisting it to support the narrative that has led to so many dead.

I'm not sure why you were so opposed to said article, I read it and it seems to lay everything out pretty well, including full sourcing. Could you tell me what exactly you take issue with?

FergusArgyll 10 hours ago||
> it talks about what the Frankfurt school was actually about

Can you quote it here? I seem to have missed it in my rereading.

aaron695 14 hours ago||
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queeshonda 14 hours ago||
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xacky 15 hours ago|
This is now the end of Wikipedia for me, it's only a matter of time before the rest of the admins try to split the wiki into endless forks.
rsynnott 14 hours ago||
... I mean, Sanger very publicly broke up with Wikipedia almost a quarter of a century ago. You may be a bit late.
Heidaradar 14 hours ago|||
did you read the reason why he was blocked? I can't say who's right or wrong but their reasons for blocking him seem to be valid in nature.
xacky 13 hours ago|||
I've been following Wikipedia almost since it began, the stated reason is not matching the actual reason, They've wanted Larry Gone for years, even Jimmy will very be betrayed eventually. Unfortunately the real aftermath won't be known until many more get banned.
duskwuff 9 hours ago||
> They've wanted Larry Gone for years

Larry was essentially inactive* on Wikipedia from 2002 until he started stirring things up last year. Nobody "wanted him gone" - he simply wasn't relevant to the project.

*: Aside from updating his user profile and commenting on talk pages about himself and his projects.

mijoharas 14 hours ago|||
I found the thread hard to parse.[0].

Can you explain the reason? from a brief skim he is promoting some project he wants to start in wikipedia from outside wikipedia, is that it or did I misunderstand?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noti...

jasonlotito 13 hours ago|||
Simple.

He broke this rule: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Canvassing

This is fairly straightforward, with the result (blocked from editing) mentioned clearly. It doesn't matter the topic.

Being a cofounder is immaterial.

moralestapia 9 hours ago||
The link you provided does not describe what would be usually be thought of as a "rule".

Consider updating your comment to make more sense wrt. that.

echoangle 7 hours ago|||
The rule is:

If there is a decision to be made on Wikipedia, the decision is made by reaching a consensus among Wikipedia users using discussions. You’re not allowed to bring in other people that might share your view but that might not even be Wikipedia users and have them argue your position for you. You’re not even allowed to selectively advertise the discussion among Wikipedia users to bias the discussion.

moralestapia 7 hours ago||
Sorry but that text is contained nowhere in the link that was provided neither are you the person I replied to.

What is this supposed to mean?

jasonlotito 4 hours ago|||
> The link you provided does not describe what would be usually be thought of as a "rule".

Yes, it does.

> Consider updating your comment to make more sense wrt. that.

It makes perfect sense to reasonable people.

n_e 14 hours ago|||
> There is general agreement among participants that he has engaged in off-wiki canvassing and is not here to constructively build the encyclopedia. There is also a significant concern shared by many editors that his actions constitute calls for outing.
gaiagraphia 12 hours ago||
Always thought the dencrentalisation and forking of Wikipedia would be the endgame. Would allow for people to actually curate their own spaces again. Wikipedia is a great project, but I feel it's basically complete, and is technically limited.

Half the references are dead or paywalled, so it's impossible to actually read more about anything. I'm sure AI would effectively be able to recreate webs of knowledge.

Indexing services which compare different forks and communities providing different 'lenses' on topics would be incredibly interesting.

Would give various institutions around the world something to do, aswell; curating their space and giving a badge of approval to provide a slight anti-slop defence.

lambdaone 7 hours ago||
> Always thought the dencrentalisation and forking of Wikipedia would be the endgame. Would allow for people to actually curate their own spaces again.

Database dumps and software for the entire enyclopedia are avaible for free, and multiple forks already exist, including two which are run on behalf of the Russian and Chinese governments. You are, and have always been, more than welcome to create your own.