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Posted by hn_acker 5 hours ago

What we call "age verification" is actually mass surveillance(pluralistic.net)
468 points | 287 commentspage 2
anmalkov 4 hours ago|
This reminds me of being refused entry to a nightclub in the US because I’d forgotten my passport, even though I had a European ID card and I’m over 40. Offline, age checks already often become rigid “approved identity document” checks. Online, that problem seems even worse, because the check can become a persistent identity layer across the web.
asdff 21 minutes ago|
Maybe it is just a lax west coast thing but they hardly ID here. Bartenders straight up don't ever card at all. Only place you'd get carded is if they put a bouncer out front, which only happens when it is getting really busy, and even then they are mostly there to keep out teenagers and break up fights, only give you a 1 second glance at your card to not chance a liquor license violation.

Certain night clubs (haven't seen these antics in CA but have in NYC and Miami) often do stupid stuff to guys though. If you show up with a group of guys they will probably not let you in. You need an even ratio of men and women. They will let in a group of all women with hardly any check.

ipaddr 2 hours ago||
This idea sounds like the death of social media. Remove anyone under 18 ensures they won't signup after. Forcing id verification means 70-80% of adult accounts will be dead. Network effects disappear. Those who remain will be businesses pushing something, hackers/spammers and some die hard group.
B56b 2 hours ago||
yay?
hylaride 2 hours ago||
Have you been on instagram lately? We're already there.
1vuio0pswjnm7 2 hours ago||
Actual title, original title: Spying on kids to protect kids from spying is very, very stupid
tom910 3 hours ago||
The main problem is providing infrastructure for a government that can over use it in future if move to ultra right/left/authoritarian spectrum

Just for example Russia build infrastructure for blocks website for child safety, but it started to used much further

rootusrootus 2 hours ago|
> The main problem is providing infrastructure for a government that can over use it in future if move to ultra right/left/authoritarian spectrum

The US is an instructive example in real time. Roughly everyone worries about what happens when their opponent gains control of the government and then promptly forgets how much they worried when their side has it.

soperj 2 hours ago||
>"Age verification" means that everyone who does anything online will have to submit to fine-grained tracking and recording of all their online activities.

Hilarious that the author doesn't think that this isn't already happening.

fsflover 2 hours ago|
You can always have more of it. Currently, you can use some technical tools like Tor Browser to protect yourself. Age verification makes it easier to block them.
rootusrootus 2 hours ago||
Could we step back a little and maybe revisit the premise that we need the gov't to be protecting children to begin with? That's what parents are supposed to be doing.
CPLX 2 hours ago|
No let's not.

Let's actually create and maintain a society.

There are still places in the world where you and your family can literally fend for yourself against nature and rival gangs and so on if you're just super attached to the concept though, it's not like this option has been foreclosed.

rootusrootus 2 hours ago||
This discussion is about the Internet. I.e. that we already have police and regulate in-person things like selling alcohol to minors, etc, is not a great argument in support of policing information.
CPLX 2 hours ago||
If you call pornograpy and violence delivery to children "providing them with information" then sure but most normal people just consider that a bad thing that we'd like to avoid and definitely would like to stop sociopathic tech CEO's from exploiting for profit.

But back to your original point, it's a pretty well-established function of government to protect the children within its borders from being harmed.

actionfromafar 5 hours ago||
Could we instead disallow algorithmic skinner-box addiction machines for everyone?
inigyou 4 hours ago||
How can you tell what one is? Reddit in 2010? Facebook in 2005? IRC in 1999?
amanaplanacanal 4 hours ago|||
If the users chooses what they are shown and the order they are shown in, then it's fine. If the platform chooses, then it's not, because they will always choose what creates the most engagement.
inigyou 4 hours ago||
So HN should be banned
amanaplanacanal 4 hours ago||
Not necessarily. Just fix the algorithm. Showing all submissions by time should be ok, showing all submissions by number of upvotes should be ok if the user chooses that.
inigyou 3 hours ago|||
The platform can also add ghost upvotes and downvotes and censor upvotes and downvotes.
infinitezest 3 hours ago||||
Is heroin the same as beer? Who even knows.
micromacrofoot 4 hours ago||||
That's the problem, recommendation algorithms on networks beyond a certain scale should be publicly auditable.

If they're not, I should be able to opt-out of them.

actionfromafar 4 hours ago|||
I think I would be fine with a positive enumeration. Some ideas for serving content:

    - purely random
    - sponsored but without user tracking (like old school TV ads)
       - sponsored for user selected geographical area feed
       - sponsored for user current location geographical area feed
    - follow "friends" or influencers
    - purely timeline

    - discussion boards
      - timeline (IRC like)
      - threaded
      - user votes (not magic platform votes)

    - follow keywords
inigyou 4 hours ago||
So Hacker News wouldn't be allowed?
actionfromafar 4 hours ago||
I think it should be, maybe I'm missing some aspect, I just cooked up a simple list of rules on the spot, sheesh :-D

Edit: huh, I'm probably stupid, but can you explain more?

inigyou 4 hours ago||
HN uses magical platform votes.
rootusrootus 2 hours ago||
And it should be transparent about it. When Dan uses a magic lever, it should be visible.
inigyou 1 hour ago||
Would Facebook be okay if all the Nazi propaganda posts were tagged "Facebook boosted this post"?
anmalkov 4 hours ago|||
Exactly. Fix the addiction machine, not just who gets checked at the door.
gampleman 4 hours ago|||
I think this is really the only serious alternative.
jonathanstrange 4 hours ago||
How about taking some personal responsibility for your life?

This shouldn't even be a consideration concerning adults.

macintux 4 hours ago|||
It's clear by now that the societal impact is significant. I can banish all the social networks from my life and they'll still be corrupting the political process, promoting divisive content, etc.
rootusrootus 2 hours ago||||
> This shouldn't even be a consideration concerning adults.

Ban the boxes for kids

jonathanstrange 2 hours ago||
I was replying specifically to someone who insinuated that all social media (or, at least, all supposedly addictive social media) should be banned for everyone, including adults. To me, it's a matter of personal freedom that they shouldn't be banned for adults.
actionfromafar 4 hours ago|||
I assume you are also for heroin vending machines at every school corner if you watch a 30 second ad slot. You don't have to use them, you know.
jonathanstrange 3 hours ago|||
No, but I'm not against selling alcohol and fast sports cars to adults, for example. I'm not very fond of a nanny state that prohibits almost everything to adults "for their sake" and because the government knows so much better.
rootusrootus 2 hours ago||
It is somewhat more challenging for the vendor selling alcohol or sports cars to manipulate your thinking, so the analogy is strained.
jonathanstrange 2 hours ago||
[citation needed]
jMyles 4 hours ago|||
Your extreme example of a policy regarding distribution of heroin is far from perfect, but also far better than prohibition, which has visited upon the world more death, disease, crime, and cartel enrichment than perhaps any other policy in history.

But surely we can do better than either of these extremes.

rlt 3 hours ago||
In general I'm opposed to this kind of regulation, but as a thought exercise, we do have the primitives needed to do age (or any other attribute) verification in a privacy-preserving and decentralized way.

You could imagine a hierarchy of organizations (governments, financial institutions, schools, etc) that a website trusts to verify some attribute (minimum age, citizenship, etc). Those organizations can attest that some identifier like an email address has been verified to belong to a real individual with that attribute, and that organization belongs to the hierarchy the website trusts, without revealing anything else about the user, the exact verifying organization, or the requesting website.

mzajc 3 hours ago|
If the website sees (and possibly stores) the e-mail address, and the government or another party knows who it belongs to, the scheme is anything but privacy-preserving.
Aunche 4 hours ago||
The new laws in the US don't require any real verification. Parents who care will just select a flag on device/OS setup that gets passed to websites. They can also just lie if they really want to. In the EU, they are trying to verify age with zero knowledge proofs.

It would be nice if the author actually spelled out the specific weaknesses of those approaches or even just referenced those laws instead of fear-mongering about "spying on kids", but I suppose that would be to much to ask of someone who made a career out of vibes based rage. Ironic that Doctorow is so eager to capitalize on the enshittification of journalism.

Aerroon 3 hours ago|
The specific weakness of these systems is that the governments cannot be trusted with this. They have demonstrated this - Snowden leaks for the US and several EU states, and the general monitoring clause in the Data Retention Directive for the EU as a whole.

Even if these governments come up with a zero knowledge system, it's only one click away from being replaced with a full-knowledge system, because the user is already used to it. These governments have already tried spying on everyone (and they almost certainly still do).

atoav 3 hours ago|
I grew up during the 90s/2000s and I used the internet, first social media platforms, messengers, etc. – a lot. My parents had no idea of computers, how to use them, how to use the internet, what is out there etc. Yet I am convinced that the way my parents dealt with it is still the gold standard.

Their parenting equipped me well to deal with weird, dangerous or otherwise harmful things I encountered. They were the kind of parents who would let us play in the woods till 9 in the evening, no questions asked if there were scratched knees or dirty cloths. If there was something they thought might be problematic, they talked to us in a way that left the ultimate decision how to deal with a situation with us, displaying a high level of trust into our ability to make good decisions ourselves (and sometimes letting us make bad ones just to talk about it after the fact).

Turns out if you want your kid to be able to deal with unexpected situations you need them to deal with situations, period. And the opposite of that is what I even back then saw with many of my friends parents: trying to shield their kid from every encountering (and mastering!) even the tiniest of dangers themselves, alone. You think you tell your kid about the dangers of the world, so they know, but the actual lesson you teach is that only their parent knows what is and isn't dangerous and that they themselves can't be trusted to judge it. That is a bad lesson.

Don't get me wrong, we did stupid stuff, like jumping of bridges into rivers and so on. But we were very careful about how we did it, diving beforehand, etc. The real stupid stuff in my youth was all done by other kids that had never learned to judge risks themselves and who in one brazen attempt of rebellion bit off more than they could chew in one go. That landed them in the hospital. My brother and I were the only kids in our friends circle who made it to 18 without having broken a single bone in our bodies, despite being regular skateboarders, snowboarders, climbers, cliff jumpers and all other kinds of borderline insane past-times, some of which don't even have a name.

One aspect: Since my parents had no idea what was on the internet and how to protect against specific dangers lurking within it an educational method that didn't have to rely on them knowing and enumerating every danger in the world proved to be a really smart choice in hindsight. Since the landscapes of social media especially for kids and young teenagers is shifting constantly at a high pace, any parenting ideas would need to keep track of all this as well. I can't even imagine how that would work.

The alternative is to ban everything. But how do they build a healthy immune system if they are never even exposed to the mild dangers first?

rootusrootus 2 hours ago||
I think the best thing most parents could do is ban the Internet from their own life. I grew up in the 80s and I have watched the evolution of parenting since then. The world is measurably safer today than it was then. Stranger danger is vanishingly rare. What the hell happened? Fear happened. Things like 24 hour cable news accelerated it, and the Internet turbocharged it. We cannot untangle the horrors we are exposed to on the Internet with what real life dangers face us, we conflate them to the detriment of our children.

Maybe our children will figure it out as they become parents. I hope so.

ok123456 1 hour ago||
Stranger danger was always rare. It was a media hype-cycle. Child abductions have always predominantly been by family or other close persons.
GrinningFool 2 hours ago|||
When the dangers consist of invisible targeted manipulation of thought processes it's a whole different category of risks that kids (and most adults) are not equipped to handle. The effects are playing out around the world as we speak.

I don't know that universal tracking is the answer. I also don't think unrestricted access to children by manipulative predators (companies in this case) is the right answer. But then, I don't think they should have unrestricted access to adults either.

pembrook 1 hour ago||
This is the only insightful comment in this entire thread but it will be ignored because people love a good moral panic.

Millennials having kids has turned them into their boomer parents, bringing out the pitchfork for whatever braindead hysteria was featured in CAPITAL LETTERS on the 6 oclock news that day.

The kids are going to be fine. None of the moral panics of previous generations are even talked about anymore, because it's all irrational kneejerk reactions to change ("this new music is different, it's destroying our kids!"). Social media doesn't even exist anymore, its just short form cable TV.

The adults on the other hand...that's the actual group we need to be worried about. They don't adapt like kids do.

The boomers mismanaged the entire developed world into a giant debt spiral and are collapsing every social welfare system their parents generation created.

The real question is: What institutions and assets the boomers created (like the internet) will the the millennials ruin with their poor governance?

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