Top
Best
New

Posted by earcar 21 hours ago

Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice(paolino.me)
577 points | 705 commentspage 9
thomas_witt 17 hours ago|
As much as I would like to agree with you about how non-digitized and rotten and crooked the whole notary etc system is - as someone who has incorporated and invested in dozens of German companies (UGs, GmbHs, and GmbH & Co. KGs), I’d seriously reconsider the UG & Co. KG structure for a one-person software business.

The tax explanation in the post is oversimplified.

Examples: With a KG, if the business earns €100k, that profit is attributed directly to you and taxed as personal income, whether you distribute it or not. At higher income levels, that’s roughly 45% including solidarity surcharge (and potentially church tax).

With a UG or GmbH, the company pays Körperschaftssteuer plus Gewerbesteuer, typically around 30% combined (depending on where its incorporated). On €100k profit, about €70k remains inside the company. If you later distribute it, you’ll pay capital gains tax based on the Halbeinkünfteverfahren on the distribution - which is 25% + Soli, bringing the total tax burden to roughly the same level as the KG.

The key difference is that with a UG/GmbH you can leave profits inside the company. That money can be reinvested into the business, other startups, ETFs, stocks, etc. - most often with only 1,5% effective tax while the money is working for you. You defer the second layer of taxation until you actually take the money out.

Also, you can pay yourself a salary. Whatever portion you pay out as salary is taxed personally just as it would be in the KG structure - but this time its company expenses, so no double taxation here either.

A few other points:

* A GmbH no longer requires €25k - its only 12,5k€ - and its also not to be locked away forever. The money can be used for legitimate business expenses immediately after incorporation.

* A decent tax advisor can usually get a VAT ID much faster than described in the article.

* A UG is widely accepted in the startup ecosystem. I’ve never seen customers reject an otherwise attractive startup because it started life as a UG. For investors, it's routine.

* Converting a UG into a GmbH later is routine, if you want to start small. If you have the 12,5k€ money, do a GmbH to save administrative hassle.

* A UG & Co. KG creates significantly more administration: two entities, two annual accounts, additional bookkeeping, additional filings, and additional advisor costs.

Of course there are valid reasons to use a GmbH & Co. KG, especially for complicated co-investment arrangements, but from what you wrote, that's not the case here. Therefore, for a solo software founder, I’d question whether the additional complexity buys you anything meaningful.

Bonus tip: You MIGHT want to consider owning your share in the Software UG not directly but through another UG, paolino UG or so. When you foresee to sell your business for significant money later, then you'll have exactly the same advantage, the money can stay in the company for reinvestment and you don't have to give up 50% of your capital gains in the moment you sign the sellers agreement. You CAN't do this easily later.

Not legal or tax advice. Just my personal experience.

pshirshov 19 hours ago||
Well, create a company in Ireland. 5 days, €300 and you can send your invoices.
markvdb 16 hours ago|
...and move to Ireland.
anon291 19 hours ago||
I just started an LLC in Oregon and I did it in the evening and got a confirmation by the next morning and an ein next afternoon
Schlagbohrer 19 hours ago||
Fascinating, and useful for those of us considering starting up in DE.
shmeeed 11 hours ago|
Much more useful tips on how to start up properly can be found in the comments. OP seems to have been pretty ill-advised.
chinathrow 18 hours ago||
[ outside of Germany ]
sreekanth850 19 hours ago||
Created an LLP, We spend around 30k INR, that is roughly 300USD.
trashcan2137 20 hours ago||
Come to Poland. You can get this done in less than a week
FinnKuhn 19 hours ago||
OP mentioned in the post that they can't move outside of Germany as it would trigger the exit tax (which would probably cost them significantly more).

This is going against multiple EU principles, but it was only introduced in 2022 and so far, there are no judgments on its enforceability as far as I'm aware.

seydor 20 hours ago||
You're lucky. After that you will have to run it!
jingpostmedia 20 hours ago||
Similar story in the UK\u2014registered a company online in about 24 hours and had a business bank account within the week. The gap between the best and worst EU jurisdictions for this is staggering.
lbriner 20 hours ago|
This does bring its own share of problems. 1000s of companies are registered in the UK with literally no checks. No address checking so people just pick a random address to register from the phone book!

When it comes to tax issues etc. it turns out the company registration is meaningless. The sweet spot has to be somewhere in the middle. Starting a company shouldn't be something you expect to do in a day but it also shouldn't require you to sell a kidney or fill in pointless forms.

ExoticPearTree 20 hours ago|||
> When it comes to tax issues etc. it turns out the company registration is meaningless.

Taxes have nothing to do with the physical location of the company. You go after the owners, and I'm pretty sure you can't open a company in the UK anonymously.

Oras 20 hours ago|||
There is an identity and address checks now in the UK.

Even banks are required to validate now, had my bank asking me to validate details even when i have my business for 6 years, same company, same address, and same bank account.

sscaryterry 20 hours ago||
Yep, and it can get quite tedious.
wayneshng 20 hours ago|
I founded my Estonian company within 3 days, that includes when the court rejected the name because a similar name already existed. Everything was online.
markvdb 19 hours ago|
The real problem becomes substance in Estonia? Residence, local director, office, ...
KomoD 18 hours ago||
You only need a contact person and a legal address, which is only €100-200/yr. You don't need a local director, physical office or similar, and you don't need to live there.
markvdb 16 hours ago||
OECD CFC rules have become much stricter in this regard...
More comments...