Top
Best
New

Posted by shadowtree 8 hours ago

There are a few things that I look back on as my mistakes in the early days(twitter.com)
https://xcancel.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/2069799283369345247
460 points | 230 commentspage 4
throwaway613746 7 hours ago|
[dead]
DDayMace 8 hours ago||
[dead]
draw_down 8 hours ago||
[dead]
yiggnewer 7 hours ago|||
[dead]
orliesaurus 7 hours ago||
Was john carmack the elon musk of that time (minus the political baggage Era)?
CamperBob2 8 hours ago||
I agree with one of the comments: "'Coulda been Doom++' hides how everyone wanted the leap back then."

Doom++ was already well under way in the form of Ken Silverman's Build engine. Duke Nukem 3D beat Quake to market by ~6 months as I recall. A shorter timeline on the latter would have put them in direct competition with each other, damaging both.

It was Carmack's job to assert technological dominance and give the industry its next generation of game engines. He did just that, and shouldn't apologize or second-guess himself.

zaphar 8 hours ago||
I think it's quite fine to acknowledge that you pushed someone or some group of people to hard as a leader. A genre defining game is not the sort of thing that deserves wrecking someone. We may appreciate the game that came out the other end while acknowledging that it may not have been worth the cost.
twoodfin 7 hours ago||
Interestingly, as I read the thread that spawned this reply, Sandy appears to argue that in fact it was worth it, despite being personally “wrecked” and believing it might have been done differently.
ipython 8 hours ago|||
It is super refreshing to hear someone saying sorry. Honestly. In a manner that actually seems sincere and self reflective.

Yes carmack may have been an asshole, but it takes a real man to recognize and own up to your own human flaws. Kudos. We need more of that in this world.

efficax 8 hours ago|||
from my memory of the time the whole promise of quake was that it was going to be a huge technological innovation. that’s what we wanted, that’s what kept my interest and had me playing the leaked alpha and buying on day one. this is an interesting perspective they have because quake was a huge success. nobody at the time thought it fell short of doom. so maybe it broke id’s internal culture, but it put them in a position to continue to succeed. quake 2 was the misstep, it just wasn’t that great of a game, or that’s how it looked from the outside
vkazanov 6 hours ago||
Quake 1 was an unbelievable tech breakthrough: full 3d, quakec vm, overall engine design held up really well. It was not a perfect game but it was ok.

I still hack on the engine and its derivations from time to time.

Quake 2 was a development of that, will a deep focus on multiplayer. And it won at that. As a singlr player game it was boring but LAN play was just amazing.

So quake 3 did rethink the engine but went all in on multiplayer.

As funny as it may sound but in the end, it is quake 1 that just keeps going thanks to its easy moddabilty.

pornel 7 hours ago|||
I was interested in Quake only because of the breakthrough 3D graphics, architecturally stunning levels, and later QuakeC.

I don't care for the story, and I wouldn't play Doom++. Electric polar bears and some Shrub lava mule, whatever. But swimming in deep underwater ruins with full 3-axis freedom was awesome.

I couldn't play multiplayer back then. Dialup sucked and was more expensive than AI tokens. Ethernet was still rare. Lugging a CRT monitor to friend's house was a chore reserved for a once-a-year LAN party.

jorl17 8 hours ago|||
Sandy might remember.
CamperBob2 8 hours ago||
Fair point, I'm going to retract that remark.
nickpeterson 8 hours ago|||
It’s always interesting when people who excel at an activity express regrets about certain decisions. I find it reassuring that being great at something doesn’t mean flawless.
georgeburdell 7 hours ago|||
Exactly. This sort of retrospective is a soft pulling up of the ladder, a do-as-I-say-not-as-I-did mea culpa where the conscience is assuaged but the spoils remain where they always were. We should accept that there is a season to burn the candle at both ends, to exploit youthful energy and to do great things.

Current Carmack would not have been capable of making Quake.

ekelsen 8 hours ago|||
Might matter a lot to sandy. I think it says a lot that decades later one of the things he remembers is someone he (or the larger company) hurt.
paulryanrogers 8 hours ago|||
Id software would've benefitted from the income of another release. I thoroughly enjoyed Build games before and long after Quake.

Demand was high. I doubt they'd have suffered even if released on the same day.

raverbashing 8 hours ago||
> It was Carmack's job to assert technological dominance and give the industry its next generation of game engines.

Did they really?

Did ID make more money with engine licensing than with game sales?

They needed to ship. I think Quake Engine could wait, and have Doom++ would have given them some slack

This is the opposite to the Boeing problem (shipping the rehashed product instead of the brand new thing)

CamperBob2 6 hours ago|||
There was this obscure indy game called Half-Life, maybe you've heard of it.

iD's engines were famously known in the industry as tech demos first, first-party game platforms second. I'm not sure how the revenue picture ended up looking, though. They obviously made a lot of money from their 'tech demos.'

raverbashing 3 hours ago||
> There was this obscure indy game called Half-Life,

Yes and Wikipedia claims it was a "heavily modified" version of the engine

And while I get the tech demo angle, doesn't mean that Quake had to be one of those

retr0rocket 7 hours ago|||
[dead]
hiddencost 7 hours ago||
This was just a long winded way of insulting Sandy but making it look professional, from what I can see. He is saying directly that Sandy was a bad designer with a poor sense of visual aesthetics.

Seems pretty gross and catty to me.

krautburglar 8 hours ago||
Id was technical excellence paired with artistic blindness. As the machines progressed, the value of the technical excellence faded. What was left? A test case for OS & compiler development.
CuriouslyC 7 hours ago||
The issue wasn't artistic blindness, the id art was solid. The issue was a lack of game design. Doom worked because it was crazy fast and you could have a lot of sprites on the screen at once, so it had this crazy hectic quality. Quake's 3d engine meant you couldn't be so fast and couldn't anywhere close to the number of enemies on screen at once, so the game wanted a more soulslike design, but they stuck with the run and gun design but with spongier enemies, which just didn't feel great.
groundzeros2015 7 hours ago||
Doom 3 doesn’t look like artistic blindness.
jacobgold 8 hours ago|
It's a little silly to revisit your mistakes like this, as if you could have done anything better. Most companies are poorly managed and produce nothing of value. The team at id Software changed the world and produced an absolute masterpiece.

Quake 1 was, in many ways, where id Software peaked. But the time Carmack spent optimizing Quake Live, based on Quake 3, ultimately made it his twitch FPS magnum opus.

Even 20 years later, there's no FPS game that comes close to the speed, mechanics, smoothness, and just overall quality: https://youtu.be/tU6v8C1pw8Y?t=675

john_strinlai 8 hours ago||
>It's silly to revisit your mistakes like this

revisiting mistakes (in a healthy, non-obsessive way) is not silly at all. it is great for self growth, and in this case, is a great way to pass on wisdom.

jacobgold 7 hours ago||
The actual quote is "It's a little silly to revisit your mistakes like this, as if you could have done anything better."

What you're saying sounds very nice and correct, except it isn’t necessarily true.

It's extremely easy to draw wrong lessons in retrospect. There are so many variables, including personalities, market conditions, timing, constraints, and accidents of history. You can't recall or even really understand these things with any level of accuracy.

What ends up being most useful is the way experience fundamentally changes you as a person, not your regretful shower thoughts posted on Twitter.

So it may seem counterintuitive, but if John Carmack wants to create another breakthrough technology, he might be better off re-creating id Software’s in 1995, including the chaos, rather than trying to avoid it by applying all his "lessons learned".

Jare 7 hours ago|||
> if John Carmack wants to create another breakthrough technology, he might be better off re-creating id Software’s 1995 chaos

Chaos is not what made them great. It was definitely part of who they were at the time, and thus part of their greatness. If you try to recreate chaos without recreating everything else within which that chaos happened to work, you will be miserable and also fail.

I suspect JC had plenty enough "being on the other side of chaos" during his VR days. It's not fun at all when it's someone else's chaos that you have to endure.

I'd agree you do need intensity in order to create breakthroughs. Not gonna happen in a "don't worry about it" type of environment.

jacobgold 7 hours ago||
I agree with that. You got an old version of my comment before I clarified that, now it says:

"...he might be better off re-creating id Software’s 1995, including the chaos, rather than trying to avoid..."

KaiserPro 3 hours ago|||
If we don't look back and asses what worked, and what didn't, how do we grow?
nehal3m 8 hours ago|||
I disagree, even for successful projects retrospection toward mistakes is worth the pain to learn.
madduci 7 hours ago||
Frankly, Unreal Tournament got a lot of that energy and peaked gameplay. Very new fresh ideas like capture the flag back then was really cool. And the speed and stability was also great.
jacobgold 7 hours ago||
Unreal was great single player and fun for multiplayer but there's no comparison in terms of the way the game played competitively vs Quake.

And CTF originally was from Quake 1, the threewave CTF mod by Zoid which made it into Quake 3.

Threewave: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFg2PPOmA74

wang_li 7 hours ago||
I believe id paid him to port ctf to Quake 2 and Quake 3.