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Posted by Cider9986 4 hours ago

Countries are competing to see which can carry out mass surveillance the best(mullvad.net)
238 points | 91 commentspage 2
ChoGGi 3 hours ago|
We're #1!
tamimio 2 hours ago||
That’s why I said it before, only delusionals think we live in democracy, there’s no democracy, no freedom, no transparency, none of the values you hear daily are actually in use, it’s just a facade to trick people and maybe to make them relax their measures to maintain their own privacy compared to non democratic ones. In fact, it’s better to be straightforward and be oppressive where people might fed up and revolt at some point rather than those sneaky tactics, coupled by making people lives very expensive to live where “privacy” becomes an auxiliary commodity, plus giving the public some distraction like concerts and other carrots after all that whipping.

It’s very accurate to assume that ALL US based tech companies are part of mass surveillance, no matter what promises you hear, companies can be forced to cooperate without the public knowledge. Same with European ones, as the article stated, they are not that far, so don’t assume much even when you see the cliche “based in Switzerland!! Trust us give us your money”. The only safe way is to host your own, maintain your own, encrypt at rest and while transferring on your own, trust no one and nothing, and it’s a good start.

swordlucky666 3 hours ago||
[dead]
jmclnx 3 hours ago||
It is from a VPN Company, so YMMV. But I do agree there is surveillance happening, but the amount of data is way too much to fully examine. Makes one wonder if this is one of the reasons the US Gov. (and others) are so into AI.
beached_whale 3 hours ago||
mullvad has been one of the good ones.
john_strinlai 3 hours ago|||
>It is from a VPN Company, so YMMV.

mullvad has one of the best, if not the best, track records when it comes to vpns over its nearly 2 decades of being in business. it feels wrong to lump them under the same "a VPN Company" label with the likes of Hola VPN or whatever, despite it being technically true.

qwertox 3 hours ago|||
It's just a matter of time until police will ask their digital avatar of you if you're becoming a problem, how your week and month and year has been, what you're up to next week.
tamimio 2 hours ago||
You don’t need to wonder, it’s a fact that the interest and investment in AI is primarily driven by the ability to mass surveillance and other mass XYZ.

In Canada, they straight up tell you that the AI will be used to profile you, from every transaction you do all the way to analyzing your sentiment

> AI could analyze public sentiment on social media and other platforms to gauge public opinion.

https://www.canada.ca/en/government/system/digital-governmen...

Brace yourself!

panny 3 hours ago||
Mass surveillance is bad, until I'm in charge of it. -- Parents demanding "age verification" laws
vlian2088 3 hours ago||
>Parents demanding "age verification" laws

I keep seeing this claim, but where is it coming from?

pixl97 3 hours ago|||
I think part of it has been that parents have been sold the 'only way' is age verification laws. As part of being a parent you're responsible for what your child does, even online. But monitoring everything they do is nearly impossible as kids are pretty sharp and will find that friend whos parents let them do anything and use their electronic devices. This presents itself as a 'valid' solution for the type of people that don't think about the ramifications of it. I mean, we have to have ID to buy cigs and alcohol and numerous other things, so why would this be bad?
beached_whale 3 hours ago||||
This parent wants a form of that that doesn't require identity disclosure. Like zero trust assertions. Without that, the risks are too high.
esikich 3 hours ago|||
Just talk to an average person rather than a tech nerd.
vlian2088 2 hours ago||
I don't think asking the average person whether they would consent to constantly have their face scanned to access the Internet would yield the result you believe it would, no matter the excuse.

"parents" are not do-I-look-like-I-know-what-a-jay-peg-is boomers you and others who make this claim believe them to be. the people who are having children now grew up with iPhones. to them, the Internet is not that newfangled thang they heard about on CNN/Fox.

so, show me the data. not a poll with vague ass questions like "are you concerned about your children's safety on the Internet?". I want to see the percentage of people who answer yes to an unambiguous question like "do you consent to submit your ID and/or scan your face to access any random website ~~to fight terrorisds~~ ~~to protect our democracy~~ to protect your children?"

esikich 2 hours ago||
"Won't somebody think of the children" is as old as time and works. That's why it's used so often. If it were ineffective at convincing people to give up their rights, it wouldn't be a thing.
vlian2088 1 hour ago||
and what I'm saying is that I'm not seeing the data to back up that claim.

California, for example, has all those propositions they vote on, about various things they're allowed to decide. the recent age verification bullshit, however, doesn't seem to have been put up to a vote.

sph 3 hours ago|||
It's not parents demanding 'age verification' laws.
gruez 3 hours ago|||
That's not supported by the polling.

>From everything you have seen and heard, do you support or oppose the recent rules requiring age verification to access websites that may contain pornographic material?*

>80% support

https://yougov.com/en-gb/articles/52693-how-have-britons-rea...

>The Essential poll found majority support for a range reforms to improve online safety including: [...] enforcing age verifications for pornography and gambling sites (79%); enforcing age verification for social media (76%)

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/article/2024/may/...

john_strinlai 3 hours ago|||
it really difficult to take this polling at face value. average people typically hear only one side of the argument: "age verification will stop kids from accessing harmful sites".

they don't hear about all of the potential downsides, knock-on effects, chilling effects, etc. unless they are part of niche groups like HN. and even if they do, in passing, they often lack the technical knowledge to really understand the implications.

i.e., they are consenting, but it isn't informed consent.

i imagine there would be an interesting picture if these numbers were presented in buckets by occupation, or by results in tech competency test, etc.

(similarly, as an example, my opinion in a poll about some complex medical procedure would not be very informed. i would be relying solely on what i hear on the news or read in a quick article, with no fundamentals to really assess and form an opinion of my own)

amarant 3 hours ago||
This is a problem with current implementations of democracy. It's free elections, but it's not informed elections. The average voter has very little clue about what they are voting for. Arguably it's impossible to know in a representative democracy.

Not that I know how to do it better, but it's definitely an issue, possibly one that could be solved somehow.

diordiderot 1 hour ago||||
There was no option to select no!

Only which age you wanted the ban to start

gruez 1 hour ago||
See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48674572
xyzzy_plugh 3 hours ago||||
Support is not the same thing as demand.
gruez 3 hours ago||
That just seems like a cheap way to wriggle out of any inconvenient poll numbers. Most people support access to abortion? Well how many people actually demand it? Most people support medicare for all? Well how many people actually demand it?
xyzzy_plugh 2 hours ago||
[dead]
antipurist 2 hours ago|||
Are you quoting the same polls that simply didn't offer respondents any way to say "I'm against all of it"?

Dishonest polls do not demonstrate popular support.

https://consumerrights.wiki/w/User:Louis/Manufacturing_suppo...

gruez 2 hours ago||
>Are you quoting the same polls that simply didn't offer respondents any way to say "I'm against all of it"?

https://essentialreport.com.au/reports/07-may-2024

PxldLtd 3 hours ago||||
This feels a bit out of touch. These policies have a lot of public support here in the UK. All of our parent friends are lauding it despite my complaints.
kodisha 3 hours ago||
What story are they telling them self to justify this?
mhitza 3 hours ago||
By ignoring key implementation details. That's what has been happening in Romania with this topic for the last year.

Constant polling and reporting of opinion, and always phrased in terms of effect instead of how they aim to do so.

Once properly informed "do you want to go through an ID check on all websites and apps that you use?" people wise up quickly to the issue. But state sponsored media is pretty adamant about moving this topic forward.

ryan_n 2 hours ago|||
You sure about that? The average person couldn't care less about privacy and would gladly hand over a significant amount of data to whatever company asks. The sentiment on hacker news isn't the norm.
noosphr 3 hours ago||
Yes, I really want pedophiles to know just how old my kids are.
basket_horse 3 hours ago||
lol as if they don’t have a birth certificate already
dismalaf 3 hours ago||
It's not shown on the internet. Age verification laws essentially broadcast it.
naruhodo 2 hours ago||
I think the basket_horse comment is referring to the US government.
dismalaf 2 hours ago||
The previous comment only says pedophiles so I don't think I'm wrong in assuming they're just talking about pedophiles online.
vivzkestrel 3 hours ago|
- does anyone have actual proof that surveillance does not effectively curb terrorism or something along those lines?

- i keep seeing the same arguments everywhere "ThEy WaNt To CoNtRoL Us" etc

- how do you propose catching terrorists then?

t-3 3 hours ago||
What's so wrong about expecting police to get warrants and do police work legally and aboveboard? If Law Enforcement doesn't follow the law, how can we trust them to impartially investigate and enforce it? Giving more power to unaccountable groups with a well-documented and lengthy history of malfeasance is just a bad idea, we should be reforming and abolishing these institutions to create a transparent and just legal system in line with the liberal democratic principles that underly our whole civilization rather than the type of surveillance state most associated with totalitarian regimes that terrorize their own people.
DrScientist 3 hours ago|||
The funny thing is that quite often people who actually perform attacks are well known to the security services ( because they have been frequently referred to them - rather than some online trawl ).

cf UK manchester bombers.

In the end the only effective way to stop terrorism ( since it's so easy to just drive a car into a crowd of people ), is to create a society where people don't want to do it - which is what we mostly have - as terrorism, while terrible, is fortunately still quite rare.

illithid0 3 hours ago|||
This is a classic logical error.

It is not the job of the citizenry to prove that surveillance doesn't curb terrorism in order to preserve privacy. It is the job of the government to prove that surveillance DOES curb terrorism to such a degree that privacy MUST be degraded.

Only then we can have a conversation.

vivzkestrel 2 hours ago||
but has there ever been a study conducted like say on arxiv or something that tells you what or what is not achieved by surveillance?
Cider9986 3 hours ago|||
There's not even that much terrorism and there wasn't much even before these authoritarian measures.

More people die in the US from cars every month than died from 9/11.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Yes, who cares what it originally meant:

https://www.npr.org/2015/03/02/390245038/ben-franklins-famou...

beej71 2 hours ago|||
Of course it curbs terrorism. But it's not worth it. Think of everything that improved when the Taliban came into power. Crime went down. Public services improved. It wasn't worth it.

The cure you propose is worse than the disease. I don't want you to prevent me from stubbing my toe by cutting my foot off. You're just going to have to find another way and do the best you can under those constraints.

duesabati 2 hours ago|||
I really can't believe there are people that still think this is about terrorism in 2026, at least not on HN
sevenzero 3 hours ago|||
How much of this is actually to "catch" terrorists? Its mostly for surveillance, intimidation, suppression. Usually it's the state that defines who a terrorist is, and usually terrorists are ALL people opposing the current regime.
DrScientist 3 hours ago||
Case in point - in the UK you can currently be put into prison for a long stretch under terrorism charges for holding up a sign with just 4 words.
deaux 3 hours ago|||
Last I checked River->Sea is 6 words. Unless it's a phrase about a different subject, but I can't imagine since the UK only tends to arrest sign holders as part of protecting Bibi's interests.
amiga386 3 hours ago|||
The four words you're referring to are "I support Palestine Action", and there's nobody in prison "for a long stretch" just for saying that.

There have been over 3000 people arrested for showing support for this proscribed organisation, and over 700 charged, but none actually prosecuted yet. It was only just decided two weeks ago that the government's act of proscribing Palestine Action was lawful.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/jun/15/arrested-pro...

Obviously, I think the Terrorism Act shouldn't silence speech like it does. Palestine Action are a pack of bumbling thugs, and the government's real reason for proscription is that those idiots successfully broke into an RAF base. Egg on face for military so government strikes back with proscription.

The law does allow for these sorts of penalties you describe. But I think you will find that if the CPS does prosecute these cases, especially against people who literally stood in front of police stations and displayed those four words and no more, i.e. they dared the government to prosecute them for speech, I don't think they will be "put in prison for a long stretch". They may not even be prosecuted at all. They would have to do more, i.e. actually break into places and physically damage them, like Palestine Action have repeatedly done, to get a long prison sentence. But the threat of prison for speech is there in the law, that's why I don't like that law.

Cider9986 2 hours ago||
You shouldn't be judged based on your speech, only your actions. That's the problem with the Terrorism Act.
john_strinlai 3 hours ago|||
>how do you propose catching terrorists then

how did police ever do anything over the past hundreds of years?

vivzkestrel 2 hours ago||
the terrorists are using signal messenger, in game chat messages and all sorts of sophisticated tooling, they are literally getting trained by it. how do you propose beating someone tech savy without using tech?
john_strinlai 2 hours ago||
>how do you propose beating someone tech savy without using tech?

no one said "without using tech".

esseph 3 hours ago|||
"Terrorists" are by far the least likely to cause me a problem directly in the US. I'm more likely to die by police or be imprisoned by the State than I am to die in a terrorist attack.
mdp2021 1 hour ago|||
In front of the loss of Anonimity (the prospected loss of Dignity), "safety" has utterly no importance. You do not trade Dignity for "safety".
buckle8017 3 hours ago||
Says a coward posting anonymously online.
vivzkestrel 2 hours ago|||
you are gonna start attacking a person for asking a reasonable question? i have been very active on HN for a long time now
N_Lens 3 hours ago|||
Don’t bother, probably a paid actor or bot.