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Posted by edward 1 day ago

Long Wave radio era set to end with switch-off(www.economist.com)
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c74yn7v7k4qo
118 points | 113 commentspage 2
jonplackett 5 hours ago|
It’s funny that at just the phrase ‘Long Wave’ my mind jumps back the “long wave radio Atlantic 252”.

I miss the days of jingles.

danielabinav160 7 hours ago||
LW is still a fallback when internet and mobile go down simultaneously. Quietly important.
_whiteCaps_ 21 hours ago||
Seems like everyone's shutting down radio services. CHU and Weather radio in Canada too :(
mschuster91 20 hours ago|
These transmitters consume insane amounts of power. Per Wikipedia, that's 500 kW of rated transmission power for this one [1], so probably a solid megawatt of grid power input.

At 30 ct/kWh, that's 300€ per hour, 7200€ per day and about 2.6 million € a year - for a customer base that is only decreasing.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droitwich_Transmitting_Station

yakkers 19 hours ago|||
Doesn't excuse CHU: two 3kW, one 5kW ERP.

And by the virtue of shortwave propagation, it could be heard across the world. For the past month and a half (from when the news of its impending shutdown was revealed) I was regularly picking it up in Australia right up until the bitter end.

ggm 17 hours ago||
Wave skip? (Naieve question)
yakkers 14 hours ago|||
HF propagates through skywave (most reliably from 5-30MHz), which is where the signal bounces off the ionosphere.

In the MF (AM broadcast) band, you can observe this at night - in Australia I can pick up the 50kW Melbourne ABC station (public broadcaster) at 774kHz with a good radio, just about across the entire country.

In the LF (longwave) band, the earth’s surface and the ionosphere start to behave more like a waveguide than skywave. This is actually more reliable/consistent than even HF, but you need massive transmitting antennas due to the large wavelengths involved.

HF also generally wins for distance covered per watt - despite the massive power of Radio 4 longwave, I’d have no chance of hearing it reach Australia.

intrasight 16 hours ago|||
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skywave

Bounce off ionosphere

reaperducer 20 hours ago||||
Is that emitted power, consumed power, or effective radiated power? Without knowing that, your power calculations have no meaning.

Radio stations are usually measured by the last of those: Effective radiated power.

You can have a radio station with a 50,000 watt ERP, but running only a 2,500 watt transmitter.

For FM radio stations, it's all about the height of the transmitter above average terrain. For AM, it's about the ground conductivity and frequency.

I once worked at a 1,000-watt AM station that had a signal much larger and clearer signal than the 5,000-watt AM station a few miles away.

I'm not a radio engineer, but I'm sure there are plenty on HN who can correct and clarify what I've written.

BuildTheRobots 19 hours ago|||
Also bear in mind that Droitwitch is radiating 3 different services. Talk Sport (1053 kHz), Radio 4 (198 kHz) and Radio Five Live (693 kHz).

My suspicion is that this means an exciter and a stack of amps per service, which then go through a two stage combiner and out to the antenna. There might even be a pair of exciters and amps per service depending on redundancy.

The combiners (certainly for FM/DAB/TV services) also cause cumulative attenuation as the signal gets combined each time, so even if all 3 are radiating at the same power, the first in the chain might need twice as much amplification to make up for losses.

edit: MB21 (of course) has some fantastic technical info about Droitwitch: https://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/gallerypage.php?txid=1454&page... and there's some great pics here, too: https://www.radiorewind.co.uk/radio1/droitwich.htm

I believe they're still using a pair of Marconi B6042 transmitters (250kW each, in parallel) to provide at least one of the services.

fredoralive 8 hours ago||
As far as I know the medium wave services aren’t transmitted from the same antenna as Radio 4 LW, they have separate antenna, albeit with one of them (5 Live) doubling up as one of the support towers for the large long wave T antenna slung between the two large towers on site. Although I suspect the plan would be to move 5 Live to the currently unused Absolute / Virgin antenna eventually so they can demolish the long wave setup.
BuildTheRobots 6 hours ago||
You're absolutely right and I was flagrantly wrong - Droitwich does use different antennas for the different LW and MF services (though still has to combine the output of two transmitters for the same service to increase the power and offer redundancy).

I was very much getting myself confused with some of their other transmission sites where they take multiple DAB or DTV services, modulate, amplify and combine them and then broadcast through the same antenna.

mschuster91 18 hours ago|||
> Is that emitted power, consumed power, or effective radiated power?

Going by [1], emitted power.

[1] https://www.bbceng.info/Operations/transmitter_ops/Reminisce...

BuildTheRobots 5 hours ago||
I can't edit my previous comment (which incorrectly implied that the 3 stations at Droitwitch are going out of the same antenna), but I've done more research and have more information.

Droitwitch LW's antenna uses a T-aerial suspended between two 210m steel masts acting as massive capacitive top-loaded vertical monopole. The signal isn't beamed or shaped, it propagates omnidirectionally and this style of antenna offers _0 dB_ of ERP increase.

Even worse, they're transmitting AM, so the power output dynamically increases with the volume of the analogue audio being transmitted. If you cut off the input to Droitwitch, it'd still be putting out a 500kW carrier wave. When audio is applied the amplitude of the carrier is modulated, so for peak loudness (someone shouting or the loudest spike in music) it can take an extra 50% power to create the upper and lower sidebands - at peak, the Vapotron tubes could be putting out a combined 750kW.

The amplification stage is only ~70% efficient as well, so at peak power it's possible that the site is pulling nearly 1MW from the grid.

--

Compared to a modern UHF DTV transmitter station the differences are wild. The big transmitter near me is putting out 6* DTV MUX's at 174kW ERP each, but that's through a 15dBd UHF array at the top of the mast which gives an obscene amount of gain.

- Mains draw at the wall ~150kW (including cooling and ancillary systems).

- Total TPO (RF energy leaving the cabs) from each of the six transmitters is only ~52kW combined (8.7kW each)

- Output of the combiners after losses of ~0.5dB is ~46kW. We can expect another ~1.5dB of attenuation after forcing it up 300m of waveguide to the top of the tower so we're now sat at a "mere" ~33kW of RF energy going into the bottom of our antenna.

- 33kW with a +15dBd gain gets us to an ERP from the antenna of 1.044 MW.

--------------

Note: Numbers compiled from public sources. All mistakes and misunderstandings are mine. Whilst I do work in a tangentially related industry this is completely out of my area of expertise - in the same way that working as a cleaner at an aeroplane does not mean one knows how to fly or maintain a plane.

mschuster91 1 hour ago||
Your math looks reasonable but eh, it's 34 °C indoors and 38 °C outdoors...
PunchyHamster 4 hours ago|||
You'd have to calculate it by watt per area covered; FM ones are of lower power but you just need more of them coz they have lower range.
nenadg 6 hours ago||
They can pry long wave radio from my cold dead hands
sidderl 5 hours ago||
http://websdr.ewi.utwente.nl:8901

One can listen to the live closure broadcast via this WebSDR website, by tuning it to AM 198 kHz.

"You are listening to 198 kHz longwave. BBC Radio 4 is no longer available on this frequency. However, you can find Radio 4 many other ways. You can find BBC Radio 4 online, via BBC Sounds. Radio 4 is available on DAB digital radio and through your digital television, including freely. Radio 4 is also available via FM radio, on 92 to 95 MHz and 103 to 105 MHz. Plus, you can listen via your smart speaker: just say 'play Radio 4'. Information on how to listen can be found on the BBC website, at bbc.co.uk/reception."

nickcw 21 hours ago||
The Droitwich transmitter used to transmit on exactly 200 kHz which I always thought was very cool, but it moved to 198 kHz in 1988 to better harmonize with European stations.

The program was mostly the same as BBC Radio 4 but it used to diverge at certain times of day. I used to be woken up at 5am every day by my parents clock radio with the farming news which was very dull, but easy to sleep through.

mark-r 20 hours ago||
Thanks for mentioning the actual frequency. The article says "long wave" many times without specifying what it actually means.
LeoPanthera 19 hours ago||
"Longwave", usually written without a space, is an informal and not well-defined term for radio frequencies lower than the AM broadcast band, which in Europe is known as "medium wave".

In the USA there have never been commercial longwave stations, though various WWV time signals are broadcast in that band.

reaperducer 20 hours ago||
It was my father's morning alarm, too. But he was a couple of thousand miles away in New York state.

That, and Atlantic 252 (I believe now long gone) were what he woke up to every morning.

gavinward 19 hours ago||
Despite the name I would not have guessed you could pick up Atlantic 252 in the US. The quality of it wasn't great for listening to music.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_252

"Although the transmitter was in Ireland, the signal's reach meant that it was often looked upon as a "UK national station". Reception reports were received from such locations as Berlin, Finland, Ibiza and Moscow."

FerretFred 3 hours ago||
That's a real shame given the distance LW could travel: I wonder what they're going to use the frequency band for? I've tried using DAB on so many occasions and thrown it out in disgust.

> Given these factors, investing in upgrading the LW equipment is not considered a cost-effective solution for licence fee-funded services

And that's another problem - maybe the Government should step in and set up a proper Civil Defence-style warning/information system - we may well need it in a few years - it's a shame our official National Broadcaster can't fulfill the role.

asdefghyk 9 hours ago||
Side Note - VLF ( Very Low Frequency ) signals (3-30 kHz) propagate via surface wave or skywave, offering stable communication for submarines through saltwater.
davidferguson 20 hours ago||
Online stream for those without a LW AM receiver: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ugd8G5w-Sfo
jmclnx 21 hours ago|
That is too bad, you would think these could be kept active for historical purposes. But seems these services are all being turned off even though I heard a few were very useful in this day and age.
cjs_ac 19 hours ago|
IIRC, their operation relies on enormous vacuum tubes that the BBC can’t get replacements for any more.
RachelF 19 hours ago|||
In some way it is short-sited, as radio is a good backup medium for global communications in case the entire Internet ever goes down.

Vacuum tubes also aren't vulnerable to nuclear weapon electro-magnetic pulses.

However, other than ham radio enthusiasts I guess no one listens to analogue radio anymore.

phire 10 hours ago|||
This transmitter doesn't really have the range for reliable global communication, it's optimised for covering the UK. For the global communication usecase, there are other networks of military transmitters (DHFCS) that are much better suited for the job, and they aren't being shut down any time soon.

What it did provide was a simple but reliable way to maintain emergency broadcast to general public within Britain. And it probably should have been kept online just for that reason.

microgpt 6 hours ago||
Except nobody has a radio any more, certainly not one that receives LF. People have cellphones, and cellphones have a mandatory feature that lets the government display a message on everyone's screen, usually accompanied by loud and scary beeping. That's the new emergency broadcast mechanism. It's not as simple, but at least people actually see it.
hdgvhicv 9 hours ago||||
Very few radios can pick up long wave now. My car certainly won’t.

Even when they can most people Wouldn’t have a clue to listen to it.

There’s a reason LW isn’t critical national infrastructure.

jasonjayr 17 hours ago||||
I got my RTL-SDR to see what I could listen to, and by the time I tuned in, nearly all the short wave stations I could tune to were just broadcasting evangelical religious stuff, or other crazy conspiracy stuff. It's remarkable that these powerful stations spend most of their broadcast day transmitting that content.
pessimizer 16 hours ago|||
They still broadcast on FM.
dingaling 11 hours ago||
... on a patchwork off different frequencies across the UK due to the poor propagation of VHF
fredoralive 8 hours ago||
Doesn’t RDS mostly solve that for the most common case where frequency changes becomes an issue (car radios).
KaiserPro 5 hours ago||
Yup, and DAB also still works.
K0balt 4 hours ago||
Umm mostly. IMHO DAB is a failure, at least for vehicles.
hdgvhicv 4 hours ago||
I listen almost exclusively on dab in the car. It auto fails to FM but it’s rare I go somewhere where that happens.
K0balt 3 hours ago||
It’s probably highly variable depending on location and the quality of your radio/antenna. It’s useless where I am.
jstanley 15 hours ago||||
It's hard to believe that civilisation has lost the ability to build longwave radio transmitters.
microgpt 6 hours ago||
It's like the moon rocket. At any time we could have restarted that program from scratch and run it again, but what would the point be? We don't have the direct ability to make one but we have the ability to gain the ability to make one.

If we did regain the capability it would probably be solid-state.

jstanley 4 hours ago||
I don't think it's like that at all. I bet you could build a perfectly serviceable replacement at home without needing to spin up any special manufacturing equipment, using off-the-shelf components.

For that matter I'd be somewhat surprised if you can't simply buy a ready-made replacement.

microgpt 4 hours ago||
A 500kW LF amplifier? Things do have to be designed to their individual requirements, you can't just buy a car stereo amp and turn it up to 1000.
jstanley 4 hours ago||
Maybe something like https://www.nautel.com/products/am-transmitters/nx-series/ ?
wartywhoa23 3 hours ago||
Thanks for sharing this, it surely blows the theory about the lost art of building powerful transmitters out of the water.
gerdesj 18 hours ago|||
We do spend out quite a lot here in the UK for the BBC. They could easily dump a couple of expensive presenters and use the savings for vacuum tubes, if that is what is needed.

No idea where vacuum tubes were invented but I'm sure the BBC could find someone to make them.

andyjohnson0 8 hours ago|||
> No idea where vacuum tubes were invented but I'm sure the BBC could find someone to make them.

The BBC has just cut its budget by £500 million, in an apparent attempt to limit the damage from the latest charter renewal process - which determines its funding. The new director general (ie ceo) is an ex-Google person, and they seem to be pivoting to become a social media content provider. So I'm pretty sure that spending licence fee money on making vacuum tubes to broadcast a signal that nobody under forty listens to wouldnt get past a value for money test.

(I like the BBC and its radio output, and I'm one of those weirdos who still pays the licence fee despite never watching tv or any of the stuff that the licence fee is required for. But it is becoming increasingly lost to me: focussed on triviality and politically cowed. Sadly, I no longer expect it to last.)

microgpt 6 hours ago||
I thought the license fee was a tax. You have to pay it, except in extremely specific scenarios that are basically just the bureaucracy's way of saying it's technically optional even though it isn't. AFAIK you have to own no devices capable of receiving BBC broadcasts - this includes most phones and computers since they broadcast on the internet.
Symbiote 6 hours ago||
You only need the license if you watch live TV (on any service) or use BBC iPlayer.

If you only watch DVDs, or stream movies etc, you don't need a license

microgpt 3 hours ago||
When did they change it from if you could watch to if you actually watch?
Symbiote 3 hours ago||
In about 2008 it was OK, my flatmate let the "TV licencing" people in to see a TV connected only to games consoles and a DVD player.
microgpt 6 hours ago||||
These aren't just any vacuum tubes. They are each the size of a small fridge, and extremely specialized for use in radio broadcasting.
TylerE 8 hours ago|||
I'm sure they could, but sourcing people willing to manufacture heavily equipment/processing intensive speciality products for tiny runs will be MINDBLOWINGLY expensive.

This isn't about the little tubes that go in a guitar amp... we're talking about tubes that may well be too large for a single person to lift.

What's more, everyone who knew how to build things is either dead or in a retirement home. You'd have to re-engineer much of it from scratch.

microgpt 6 hours ago||
At least you already have some working tubes to start from. Some guy did it with Nixie tubes, of course those are a lot smaller.
TylerE 5 hours ago||
Exactly - and look what those cost despite being produced in relative quantity. Now scale up to something that's 1000 times the size with 1/1000th the production volume. Wouldn't surprise me if the per-tube cost was in the millions.

Nixies are also cold cathode, low current devices. Radio broadcast tubes can be handling tens or even hundreds of thousands of watts.

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