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Posted by bilsbie 2 days ago

The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy(expression.fire.org)
1134 points | 602 commentspage 2
monssooon 1 day ago|
Do you think that this will lead to a new version of a alternative "internet" where people try to avoid the government control? And is that even possible? Or will we all just comply?
debesyla 1 day ago||
Only if it can be turned into gray market business: additional layers of proxies and VPNs, and whatever new is invented.

As simple "I care about privacy" need is not a reason to bother with setup for a regular person. So it could work only if it's as easy, as current internet. And for profit businesses provide it.

As for another protocol all together: there are some experiments already, but again, why use those?

monssooon 1 day ago||
Yeah profits is a problem.

I consider mesh-nets for home use... We already use walkies in the house...

wartywhoa23 1 day ago|||
> Or will we all just comply?

Ask yourself. I won't. Will you?

vlian2088 1 day ago|||
only for a short while longer. US, EU, China, and Russia are all on the same page about you-vill-ovn-nothing-und-you-vill-be-happy kind of future, and they will bully the rest of the world into compliance.
monssooon 1 day ago||
It is such a sick idea. But i cant really figurer out if they want to force this on us or they just anticipate that type of poverty will become normal for the new "middle class" and they want to make everyone accept it with some "crisis argumentation".
wartywhoa23 1 day ago||
> if they want to force this... or they want to make everyone accept it with some "crisis argumentation".

False dichotomy, both parts are equivalent.

monssooon 14 hours ago||
I'm not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing? Or are you discussing a semantic thing?
wartywhoa23 12 hours ago||
The latter.

They are going to force it by creating artifical problems, waiting for the public's reaction and coming up with prefabricated solutions.

Every little incrementalist step that led us to the current state of affairs, was implemented this way.

Tangurena2 1 day ago||
No. Tor does most of this and the number of users is trivial.
monssooon 1 day ago||
Could tor become forbidden?
wartywhoa23 1 day ago||
Sure. It's completely unreachable in Russia without some other tunnel to reach Tor network.
zaptheimpaler 1 day ago||
This seems more like a technical problem that we could actually solve well if we wanted to and had competent people advising the governments. You go to DMV and they generate a keypair and an entry in a DB. App looks up your age with your public key + signed private key authorization from you. Apps can ask for specific checks like is_over_21, is_citizen or whatever without any more data. Something like that, details are probably off ;) The whole infrastructure could be open source. Age verification doesn't need to equal identity verification by a 3rd party company that will leak your IDs.
yoz-y 1 day ago||
None of this is necessary. First, the only devices that actually need to be gated are cell phones.

The user agent should simply send the user’s age of the parental lock is set up and the websites required to respect this.

Parental controls and the OS should be robust enough to not let kids bypass it (e.g.: by installing a browser that skips the header, or blocking proxy websites)

Done.

Cellphones only because those are the devices kids can have on them all the time and can easily use in private unsupervised.

HerbManic 1 day ago||
Never underestimate the resolve of a teenager who is being kept from something they want. And once they solve it, they will spread the word for clout.
yoz-y 10 hours ago|||
I’ve been there and done that, as a teenager. However that was on a computer, mobile devices are much more restricted and more secured. If there is some arcane hack to bypass these it will be known and fixed.

For me the main goal is to go from “any kid can do whatever on internet, unsupervised” to “it takes effort and subterfuge to get to some stuff”.

myaccountonhn 1 day ago|||
The system doesn't need to be impenetrable. There might even be legitimate reasons for kids to circumvent it.
CSSer 1 day ago|||
They want it to equal identity verification! When virtually every top tech executive who wants a favor is at the inauguration and you have companies doing 180 degrees on support for something they previously furiously opposed, someone is getting something they wanted. It seems naive to think otherwise. Furthermore, the current administration in the U.S. fired or ignored the competent people to which you’re referring, and those people oppose a centralized repository of various metadata because it creates a central point of failure, otherwise known as a target, that is generally a bad idea for both our nation and our citizens. Of course there are agencies in the federal government that possess this information already, but they possess it for their purposes only. This is good because it means that it’s both more difficult to abuse internally in addition to being more cumbersome to collect externally.
forinti 1 day ago|||
It's a political problem, not a technical problem.
whoisthemachine 1 day ago|||
Yeah this is a basic problem that's been solved since the advent of PGP. As many other posters have said, this isn't about age verification.
Geezus_42 1 day ago|||
There's still a whole DB matching IDs to keys waiting to be leaked. The US government can't even keep it's own personnel records safe and you think this won't get stolen and used to target people?
pornel 1 day ago|||
This still criminalizes sharing "adult" information with people who are not on the government's approved list (the things states do to crush dissent are not safe for children.)
dylan604 1 day ago||
why would any site on the internet need to give a damn about is_citizen? That's just gross to me at the mere suggestion. If it's a government service site, then they already know that information. If you're trying to use something like social media, then it couldn't possibly matter less.
intrasight 1 day ago||
To use frontier AI
gchamonlive 1 day ago||
Who'd have guessed hitting the library would become an act of rebellious defiance
OnionBlender 1 day ago||
How is hitting the library an act of rebellious defiance? Getting a library card requires an ID and proof of address. The library then tracks which books you've signed out. Unless you're reading the books inside the library without signing them out.
EvanAnderson 1 day ago|||
My library, at least, is fanatical about their patron's privacy.

I don't know what their retention time is on circulation records, but beyond aggregate statistics for culling materials that aren't circulating I bet it isn't too long. Now I want to go check.

My library also only keeps 24 hours of video surveillance because they didn't want to be able to fulfill requests from the cops for footage of patrons. I really liked that.

Edit: In the patron portal it permits me to disable "borrowing history" and says it permanently deletes my records. I do contract IT work for them so next time I'm engaged I'll ask about the details. They're moving to Koha later this year (free / open-source ILS) so I could go look at the code to see what it does (which is nice).

On the theme of their privacy fanaticism:

Over a decade ago the library got a grant to do outdoor public WiFi in the park behind their building. As part of that grant they needed to report the number of distinct users using the WiFi each day. Their UniFi controller tracks MAC addresses of associated stations. I used a query against the underlying MongoDB to get the usage reports to satisfy the grant.

To minimize the potential of tracking individual users the library director had me write a script to grovel thru MongoDB, do a SHA-1 hash of each public MAC address tracked concatenated with a randomly-generated salt for that day, then write back the first 48 bits of the hash over the original MAC. The library gets their daily statistics and long-term traffic trend data, they don't double-count associations for the same device in the same day, but they can't track individual people over a span of multiple days.

Now that devices randomly-generating MACs are mainstream it's much less necessary. I thought it was really cool she thought this. (The whole salting/hashing bit was my idea. She just wanted to be able to fulfill the grant reporting requirements amd be unable to track people.)

doginasuit 1 day ago||||
A library is supported by local property taxes, so requiring proof of residence serves a practical purpose. Of course they are going to track loaned books too. This is not the same thing, by any stretch. If they are somehow making that information available beyond the scope of the library system it is a breach of trust.
HoldOnAMinute 1 day ago||||
Start your own library.

Write your own books.

Make your own music.

StanislavPetrov 1 day ago||||
My library card has no picture on it. Me and 100 of my closest friends could easily share the same card.
nathan_compton 1 day ago|||
I'm pretty sure I didn't provide an address or an id when I got my library card.
Ifkaluva 1 day ago||
In the US? I think you most likely need to provide proof of an address
ghaff 1 day ago|||
I'm pretty sure I had to provide some proof of residency for a library card from my town or state in the US.
tayo42 1 day ago||||
I think some will just limit the books you can take out at a time if you don't have proof.
gchamonlive 1 day ago|||
What if you are homeless? Can you at least sit and read there?
Ifkaluva 1 day ago|||
Certainly, but I think you need to have a library card to use the computers.

I do see folks who look homeless using the computers, so I assume there must be a special accommodation for them.

But, if you’re just a regular middle class joe looking for anonymity on the internet, I don’t think the library is the place for you—it’s tied to your library card which knows your address, and anyway what would you want to be private that you would be ok to broadcast in an open library setting? Nobody watching corn or browsing whatever successor to Silk Road.

Usually the login screen says something about fairly restrictive terms of use, even for the WiFi on a personal device, and I don’t know if you can install software on the library computers.

When I look around at library patrons using the computers, it’s usually lower income folks applying to jobs or similar, and people playing chess.

Geezus_42 1 day ago|||
You can. You just have to ignore all the privileged people being annoyed that they have to see you. They love posting on Nextdoor about how much they hate homeless people.
__MatrixMan__ 1 day ago|||
Do you know any librarians? Public libraries have always been a bit punk rock.
TheRoque 1 day ago|||
In your country maybe.. In mine it's super boring and intellectual
derwiki 1 day ago||
The punk rock is? I would be interested in checking that out! (/s)
jazz9k 1 day ago|||
Punk rock has always been right wing. Libraries are about as far from this as they can get.
gchamonlive 1 day ago|||
Has always been anarchical, so in essence it's in opposition to any form of authority that's predominant at the time. It makes zero sense to call it left or right wing.
jplusequalt 1 day ago||||
>Punk rock has always been right wing.

What???

krapp 1 day ago|||
The anti-authoritarian, anti-government, anti-fascist, anti-capitalist music genre punk rock? Always right wing?

I mean, Nazis have always been attracted to punk because they like the loud noise but are too stupid to understand lyrics, but they tend to get their shit kicked in by punks more often than not. I don't think that's the same thing.

u8080 1 day ago|||
Sure thing, i.e. Egor Letov
nephihaha 1 day ago||
The Ramones were divided politically, if I remember rightly. One of them was on the moderate right.

In the UK, there was also the Rock against Communism movement which came out of the far right faction of punk and was a response to Rock against Racism.

jplusequalt 1 day ago||||
I've seen a lot of confidently incorrect takes on this site, but "punk rock is right wing" may be the worst.
nephihaha 1 day ago||
Some punk rock is. The idea that it is always on the left was not true, even in the early days.
nephihaha 1 day ago|||
There is a myth that punk has always been left wing. Most of it has been, but right wing punk has been there from the beginning and still is around.
dredmorbius 23 hours ago||
"You know what the most dangerous thing in America is, right? N* with a library card."

- Brother Mouzone / Ed Burns & David Simon, The Wire (2003) S2E10 "Storm Warnings"

The scene is apparently on YT, though ... you'll have to sign in to confirm your age to view it best I can tell:

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCioIwagYxM>

(If this link works, you'll get the full unbowdlerised quote. For those unfamiliar with the series, the speaker is Black.)

ike2792 1 day ago||
While obviously requiring real-world ID verification will reduce privacy, is there really any actual privacy left on today's internet? Every company from your ISP to Google to every vendor you shop at can read your browser fingerprint and IP address, which in most cases is enough to uniquely identify you. For serious privacy-concerned users there are ways around all of this but the vast majority of internet users don't really seem to care. What additional level of privacy reduction do the ID-based plans cause beyond what we already have today?
ranyume 1 day ago||
> While obviously requiring real-world ID verification will reduce privacy, is there really any actual privacy left on today's internet?

Privacy is not an on and off switch or an all or nothing. You have to defend the privacy you have and also fight to expand it as a human right.

originalcopy 1 day ago|||
I agree. Also, it's not like the whole internet will be under ID check. One can still opt out and don't use the main stream social media? My hope is that ID check is targeting never ending feeds of crappy content.

That said, I am very concerned about how things work privacy wise today (even without ID check).

edot 1 day ago|||
If everyone else jumps off a bridge, do you want to be forced to jump off a bridge?
fsflover 1 day ago||
The privacy tools that are working today will be much easier to block. Hence, any activists and journalists that the government dislikes will become even more vulnerable. We need to fight this and not give up.
burke 1 day ago||
Far worse than "decimate", which implies that nine tenths of it survives.
dredmorbius 23 hours ago|
"Annihilate" needs to come back into literary fashion, most especially where it's accurately descriptive.
klik99 1 day ago||
An administration that ran on anti-war, less regulation, free speech, and the news is war, AI models being regulated, and requiring identification for speech. Maybe the current administration are accelerationists who want to show how bad all these things are by doing them really badly? That seems to be the only valid read here (/s for those who need it).
sscaryterry 1 day ago||
This just legitimises the existing practices. They already know who you are.
wartywhoa23 1 day ago||
Hilarious.

So if they know, then why all the fuss and the the need to enforce ID on the Internet? Just for the heck's sake?

Ah, that's for legitimization. In other words, "by producing your digital ID, you herein fully acknowledge the fact that you're a slave to the system in which all we knew about you illegaly, is now known legally"?

sscaryterry 14 hours ago||
It was tongue-in-cheek, a bit of satire :)
wartywhoa23 13 hours ago||
Sorry then, I failed to parse it :)
customguy 1 day ago||
"just"?
trumpdong 1 day ago||
Age verification is identity verification... except when it's in California or Illinois?
dools 1 day ago||
How is it any different from being required to identify yourself to get a phone or electricity account? Identifying yourself on the internet is long overdue.
monssooon 1 day ago||
It is fine in some cases. But what is at stake here is not identifying yourself in a couple of common sense situations.

It is enabling control infrastructure for governments whom are becoming increasingly undemocratic in a society where the elite gets more and more influence and where the middle class is becoming ruined.

HoldOnAMinute 1 day ago|||
Thought experiment: How do you get a phone or electricity in the most impoverished, backwards parts of the USA?
stackghost 1 day ago|||
You need to identify yourself to the phone and electricity utilities so they know where to send your monthly bill. My ISP knows my name because I pay them for connectivity. I am okay with this.

If I misbehave here, dang can just ban me. There's no reason HN needs to know my real name. The only reason to mandate blanket age and identity verification is to control online speech.

StanislavPetrov 1 day ago|||
You aren't required to identify yourself to get a phone. You can get a prepaid phone with no ID.

You are required to identify yourself for an electricity account because it is essentially extending you credit. You use the electricity first, and then they bill you for it later. They also only identify the person who is receiving the bill. You could have a house with a dozen people in it but the electric company only knows the name of the person responsible for the bill.

You are free to identify yourself on the internet right now. People who are intelligent and/or believe in freedom and free speech are opposed to this authoritarian power grab.

TFNA 1 day ago|||
> You aren't required to identify yourself to get a phone. You can get a prepaid phone with no ID.

Requiring ID to buy a prepaid SIM card has become the norm across the developed world. There are still a few holdout countries, but they won’t hold out for long.

JoshTriplett 1 day ago||
You say that as though it's a feature rather than a bug. Being able to have an anonymous SIM card is a useful privacy and security feature, to avoid things like "tell me the ID of everyone in the vicinity of this protest". (And that's one reason governments try to break that.)
TFNA 1 day ago|||
My sympathies are increasingly with the Chinese model of development. So, yes, policies that confront the major challenge of our era – ensuring social harmony among the chaos of modern media and communications – are good features.
JoshTriplett 1 day ago||
> ensuring social harmony among the chaos of modern media and communications

Harmony is another word for suppression of dissent, and that's the effect it'll have.

There's a long history of tools being promoted for one purpose and used for another. Tools supposedly intended to restrict "porn" get used to restrict LGBT healthcare and resources. Tools supposedly intended to promote "harmony" on social media get used to track down activists and protestors.

The obvious response to such overreach is to refuse to allow such tools to exist. It's not that the tools invite abuse; it's that all use of such tools is abuse.

wartywhoa23 1 day ago|||
People like the guy you replied to surely don't perceive the right to protest as vital.

Neither won't they ever fathom the fact that governments inevitably become full-on fascist to the meek bleating of a critical mass of ther ilk (check the sympaties to the Chinese surveillance below).

dools 1 day ago|||
> You aren't required to identify yourself to get a phone. You can get a prepaid phone with no ID.

Not in Australia

stevenjgarner 1 day ago||
[dead]
utopiah 1 day ago|
Might want to check https://github.com/helloyanis/agechecker.net-bypass/ and help.
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