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Posted by rossant 1 day ago

Ultrasound imaging of the brain(alephneuro.com)
312 points | 117 commentspage 2
jzer0cool 16 hours ago|
My phone crawls with all the processing happening on the site.
rich_sasha 1 day ago||
I thought the whole "we can guess what you're thinking from an MRI" thing was BS, along the lines: take a small set of photos, image people's brains as they are looking at these pictures, to map to some low-dimensional vector of "brain activity". Then show them some of these (in sample!) pictures, measure the vector of activity and predict back what they were looking at.

Happy to be corrected. But if that's right then this... does the BS thing in a potentially less intrusive way?

fastball 23 hours ago||
How is that BS? If the technique works, you can grow your sample of imaged brains and viewed images ad infinitum, and then why wouldn't I be able to tell what random thing any random person is looking at?
SubiculumCode 22 hours ago||
1. Yes, that is generally what those studies did. 2. Th studies are not BS, the popular press description of those studies is BS.
SubiculumCode 22 hours ago|||
The patterns and locations of activations might be predictive within a sample of images, but cannot discriminate in other samples. The temporal and spatial resolution is too low.
rich_sasha 16 hours ago|||
Great. Do you have to hand an accessible non-BS description of one of those?

I have no biology background, but one ML PoV in-depth description I read of these sounded indistinguishable from BS.

anax32 1 day ago||
Can anyone explain how this ultrasound can see through the skull?

I've worked on ultrasound devices and data, the shadows from bone, and distortions caused by tissue types were very difficult. If this device can deal with those distortions it would already be useful for lung imaging.

DoctorOetker 2 hours ago|
lungs are much harder than brain and bones (the acoustic impedances of solids and liquids is more similar than solids/liquids vs air: air is very thin)
crmd 1 day ago||
Amazing spacial precision but the article doesn’t mention the time domain. I assume a brain interface needs to have a pretty high sampling rate in order to meaningfully decode human thought.
janalsncm 1 day ago||
Looking at the animations, it’s not hard to imagine this being a fast, low cost test for strokes that can be deployed basically anywhere in the world. Life saving technology.
ogundipeore 1 day ago|
You can already do this with EEGs for low-ish cost
iamleppert 1 day ago||
Every few years one of these ultrasound companies comes around and promising to revolutionize medical imaging and nothing ever comes of it. Anyone remember https://www.openwater.health? The same ideas are in a perpetual state of being reinvented and part of me thinks its just a hustle for the MIT Media Lab/Stanford Imaging grads to give them something to do.

The tell is "super resolution", "brain computer interface" and "mixed modality" -- adding some contrast agent here, or maybe an IR light source.

It turns out the nyquist limit, diffraction and physics are real things.

pedalpete 1 day ago||
It doesn't work until it does.

The same thing has been said about robotics, AI, space travel, etc. etc.

I'm not saying this is the way, and I have significant questions of understanding thought based on reading brain activity, but I wouldn't put down the entire ultrasound field.

TheOtherHobbes 1 day ago||
It doesn't work unless it does.

Until implies we're just waiting. Unless implies actual evidence, and - in medical procedures - some guarantee of safety.

SF6 plus ultrasound is used to open the blood brain barrier. So if you're pumping a lot of ultrasound into a brain and using a lot of SF6, there are already risks.

fragmede 1 day ago||
but technology is getting better all the time what doesn't work because they only have one Tesla, well shit, let's try it with 100.
nico 1 day ago||
Is this the same tech the Midjourney scanner device is using?
ogundipeore 1 day ago|
Yeah, they’re using butterfly network chips for the ultrasound but with some additions.

(IV with microbubbles that they can trace as it flows through the brain & some extra imaging algorithms)

cyber-anderson 23 hours ago||
[dead]
tokyovigilante 1 day ago||
This is complete nonsense. Ultrasound can’t effectively penetrate the skull. The entire thing (and Midjourney’s) is vibed-up nonsense.

The only reason this even exists as a brainfart and hasn’t been immediately laughed out of VC funding is because other imaging modalities require either ionising radiation (illegal to produce without source licences) or an enormous magnet (would be wildly unsafe in the hands of what appear to be circus clowns).

Geoffrey Hinton was hilariously wrong 10 years ago about replacing radiologists, and this is just embarrassing. Maybe try fixing US healthcare funding instead if you want cheaper scans.

SubiculumCode 22 hours ago||
There is a line of research right now using ultrasound as a king of treatment for mental disorders, similar to TMS approaches. It's not that the sound can't get there, it's whether you can get information back from it.
fastball 1 day ago|||
Ultrasound can penetrate the skull, esp if through a thin part of the skull (like the temporal bone, which going from the graphic on the website is exactly where they are targeting these waves) and with targeted frequencies.

You are misinformed.

tokyovigilante 22 hours ago||
I am a consultant radiologist. Tell that to my 6-month old infants who require MRI with GA because their fontanelles are closed. Transtemporal can give you a poorly resolved image of the 3rd ventricle at a pinch.

“Targeted frequencies” - righto.

insane_dreamer 22 hours ago||
It definitely can penetrate the skull, and transcranial focused ultrasound has been around for a few years now with plenty of studies.

So that development isn't new; what's new is to use it broadly for imaging instead of for highly targeted stimulation.

tokyovigilante 22 hours ago||
Not to the level of clarity and detail presented here, which is not possible from a basic acoustics physics premise. The “technical blog” is marketing fluff.
insane_dreamer 17 hours ago||
that's why I said: "what's new is to use it broadly for imaging"
tokyovigilante 17 hours ago||
That’s the made up part though.
insane_dreamer 16 hours ago||
right, that may indeed be so
brador 13 hours ago||
I want to see this done on a primate. Does a monkey recognise a bus? in how much detail? do they dream? Then do cats too. what are they thinking when they sit on the overheating pc? knocking my fresh coffee over?

A whole world of reasoning behind evolutionary solutions to explore.

insane_dreamer 22 hours ago|
Interesting technology, and of course transcranial ultrasound has been around for a while. But ultrasound even at low doses, does stimulate neurons in the brain, and so until we have more data I would be careful about applying it to the entire brain or portions thereof. transcranial focused ultrasound, which has been studied and shows great potential in medical or therapeutic domains, is highly precise, and even then we see that it can have adverse neuropsychological effects depending on the area stimulated, frequency, used, duration, and natural variance between individuals.
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