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Posted by cemdervis 6 hours ago

If you can't hold it, you don't own it(dervis.de)
175 points | 111 commentspage 2
Bender 4 hours ago|
I agree with the intent of the article but for what it's worth does not have to be physical. I have digital music and movies that can not be remotely disabled, censored, changed to fit current societies norms. The problem is when the dependency is on servers that belong to someone else or are controlled by someone else. I can self host my own instances of Ampache or just plain old HTTPS with auto-index enabled or SFTP or anything of my choosing. I qualify those as ownership assuming the digital media does not have some embedded code to reference a remote server and anything resembling an embedded license is stripped out. For sure I will hold onto my CD's and DVD's forever. I regret selling off a lot of vinyl.
threetonesun 4 hours ago||
Physical things take up space and degrade over time. In a world where operating systems and software control licensing owning physical media is barely better than digital except for potentially reselling it.

Enjoy something when you enjoy it, however you enjoy it. In the end you can’t keep anything but that.

cassianoleal 14 minutes ago||
> Physical things (...) degrade over time

There are many books available older than any of the existing tech companies are likely to exist for. I'd bet those books will remain readable until that time as well, and there's nothing stopping people from making copies of them. Making such copies is in fact also completely legal in a lot of places.

rhinoceraptor 22 minutes ago|||
Discs can rot, but I would still take a large blu-ray collection over a large MKV collection stored digitally. The odds that your entire blu-ray collection will all rot are much lower than a catastrophic data loss.

And most people are not good enough sysadmins to keep a collection of digital files from being lost over decades. And even more so when the digital files are pirated, which makes them more or less fungible, they can be redownloaded so investing in backups is not a priority.

delichon 4 hours ago|||
I recently passed on some of my favorite books to a nephew. Probably nobody will break into his house and take the books off of his shelves when a license agreement expires. I'd like to be able to do the same with GTA 6 if it's good, but it looks like that would require hacking.
ThrowawayTestr 4 hours ago|||
Does having a hard drive full of mp4s count as holding it?
carra 4 hours ago||
If they have no DRM, I would say it does!
ralusek 3 hours ago||
Given my memory these days, I can't keep that either.
dijit 4 hours ago||
In some cases, even if you hold it you don't own it.

I tend to purchase a lot of blu-rays, in fact if I don't buy the movie on Apple iTunes then it's almost always the case that I buy the blu-ray; then once I have the blu-ray I go to the torrent sites and download a version of the movie.

Why? Because I earn enough money that I feel like I have no excuse not to buy my media: but I also want it to be my media; and torrenting is more convenient than using blu-rays.

The blu-rays have one more major benefit than iTunes or the torrents though: if I'm ever without internet or my NAS dies... well, I can just dump a disc into my console and watch whatever movie I was going to watch anyway.

One time I was moving apartments, there was no internet and I hadn't set up my computers yet; decided to watch a movie with my girlfriend, grabbed a disc and set up the playstation.

Lo-and-behold... it didn't work.

Why? -- not because the disk was broken, not because the playstation had broken: but because I didn't have internet access.

The playstation has to connect to the internet to play blu-rays.

I didn't know of this because I always just used torrents and had the disks as a "license"...

So I tried my laptop: no dice either, VLC refused to play, Linux had a really bad time.

I tried with my macbook, of course no macbook came with a blu-ray player, and the one I had needed two USB-A slots, so it was a ball-ache to get the thing hooked up and I finally got something working by hotspotting my phone and googling around.

Anyway, what the fuck.

It was at that moment I realised; even physically owning things isn't actually owning them anymore.

I still don't technically pirate, but I no longer feel even the slightest derision for those that do, and I work in the entertainment industry where piracy puts people out of work (I've seen it).

protimewaster 4 hours ago||
For what it's worth, if it was a PS4, they only require internet access the first time a Blu-ray is played. And, I don't mean the first time a specific Blu-ray is played, but the first time any Blu-ray video is played.

My guess is that Sony didn't want to pay the licensing fees for every PS4, so, the first time you play a Blu-ray, it connects to Sony to get a license. From then on, you can play them without internet.

dijit 3 hours ago||
Doesn’t feel very reliable, the time I needed it- it didn’t work.

What happens when those servers go offline?

What happens if I reinstall the PS4?

Sony was the principle architect of Blu-Ray, if even they can’t build a system that comes with decryption keys then who can?

Blu-Ray players don’t have access to the internet, do they?

Also, yeah, my PC not working was part of the issue.

rhinoceraptor 18 minutes ago|||
I've never heard of a blu-ray that requires an internet connection. My Sony UHD blu-ray player has an ethernet port but I've never connected it to the internet. A few of my late 2000s era big studio discs advertise online gimmicks like polls, new movie trailers, etc. but I assume all of those servers are now dead.
protimewaster 3 hours ago|||
> What happens when those servers go offline?

Funny enough, if you keep your PS4 on an old version and jailbreak it, you can just go in and activate the license yourself. No internet or servers required. Turns out, you can also pirate games if you do this. Piracy wins again?

> Sony was the principle architect of Blu-Ray, if even they can’t build a system that comes with decryption keys then who can?

The even weirder thing is that Sony did build this, with the PS3 and their standalone players. They just skimped on the PS4 (and I assume PS5).

I think Sony just really started half-assing the video player part of their consoles after the PS3. For example, the PS4 Pro, which is specifically advertised for 4K capabilities, cannot play 4K Blu-rays. In contrast, when Microsoft updated the Xbox One, they added UHD Blu-ray support to every model, even the cheapest one.

dijit 2 hours ago||
Keeping anything at an old version requires perfect foresight (in the face of diminishing capabilities).

It's not like original PS4's can continue playing games as they're released, new releases assume later and later PS SDKs, you're only meant to certify against "latest".

And since downgrading is not possible on most "appliance" class devices (phones, consoles)... :\

protimewaster 38 minutes ago||
Yeah, it definitely requires some luck or planning. I mostly meant that all simply to say, I think that, with Blu-ray physical media, the odds are pretty good you'll be able to watch it in the future, via some means. Right now, used PS3s and Blu-ray players are pretty cheap, used PS4s that haven't been updated in a few years are available, etc. There are ways to play Blu-rays even if all the supporting online infrastructure is shut down, even without resorting to breaking any DRM or pirating. That's a contrast to movies on services like PSN.
enos_feedler 4 hours ago||
Why were you watching movies when you should have been setting up your apartment
folkrav 3 hours ago|||
Are you pretending like you just unpack non-stop for days whenever you move?
dijit 2 hours ago|||
A little break after moving all our stuff to another country.
rich_sasha 2 hours ago||
I think DRM is frankly a lot more of a consumer education/rights thing than some kind of outright evil.

Buy a DVD for X, or "own" a DRM version for Y<X - why not. It's a bargain I'm happy to strike, or at least I appreciate the option.

The issue starts when:

- vendors don't make it clear that they can pull the rug

- or indeed can pull the rug for no reason. A bank can close my bank account, but not for no reason - and they can't hold on to my money just because. It should be the same with DRM-protected assets

- people don't understand the tradeoff they're making. It's like complaining about reckless overspending in credit cards leading to insane interest. Yes, it's partly to do with the product, equally credit cards totally have their use when used responsibly, and a healthy society has people understanding the differences.

al_borland 3 hours ago||
I think DRM and streaming are the issues here, not digital vs physical.

For example, I can buy DRM free music from the iTunes Store, download the files, and they’re mine. I can play them back on anything that supports the file type, convert the files, back them up, etc.

Meanwhile, if I check a book out from the library, I can hold it, it’s physical, but it’s not mine and I can’t do whatever I want to it.

win311fwg 2 hours ago|
> I can buy DRM free music from the iTunes Store, download the files, and they’re mine.

If you hold the copyright they are yours, but most files downloaded from iTunes and similar services are unlikely to be yours. A license to use the content, even where there are few restrictions, is not ownership.

al_borland 1 hour ago||
If holding the copyright is the bar, then physical media doesn’t give that either. Buying a physical book doesn’t transfer the copyright to me. I can start producing more copies and selling them, at least not legally.
foobarbecue 4 hours ago||
I bought a Kindle copy of Steven Baxter's novel Ring. One day, I decided to re-read it and downloaded it to a new device.

It had changed from the English edition to the German translation!

Amazon eventually admitted that this was some kind of glitch, but they were uninterested in fixing it. I got a refund, but there was no way for me to read the book.

stavros 4 hours ago|
Arr, aye there be!
AnimalMuppet 4 hours ago||
No need for piracy. Since they gave him a refund, he could just buy a copy.

If they refused to refund his money, then... yeah, it does make you want to hoist the black flag, doesn't it?

foobarbecue 52 minutes ago|||
There is actually no legally available English version of this ebook now, so if you want the ebook piracy is the only option. Presumably Amazon still has the rights to sell it, but due to a technical glitch and disinterest, they aren't.
stavros 4 hours ago|||
Since he already owns a copy, I don't think he can buy another, unless it's a physical book.
geor9e 3 hours ago||
As long as we're nitpicking every sense of the word "own", the strongest legal sense means you're the copyright holder, and every sense downstream of that is some lesser license. Buying a disc is a license to view the intellectual property, subject to various restrictions like only showing it within your personal home.
cassianoleal 13 minutes ago||
> various restrictions like only showing it within your personal home

Are you implying that lending the disc to a friend so they can watch in their own home is forbidden? Or taking the disc to the friend's place to watch together?

wilg 2 minutes ago||
No, those aren't the restrictions. But there are restrictions. First-sale doctrine allows lending. But you are not allowed to play the movie in, say, a restaurant, theater, or other public place.
ooterness 2 hours ago||
If the disc is an abstract license, surely the seller will replace the disc if it's scratched. I already bought the license, so what is the real purpose of the physical token?

Somehow the concept of ownership has been twisted to so that obligations only flow in one direction. Rules for thee, not for me.

wilg 4 minutes ago||
The point OP is making is that it's not the concept of ownership that has been twisted, there just never was ownership of media beyond owning the actual copyright. Everything else is licensing.
ForceBru 4 hours ago||
> Streaming services rent you access. Digital stores sell you a license that can be taken away. Physical media gives you an object that is yours, offline, and in your hands. > > Physical media can be given away, inherited, or found at a thrift store decades from now. A digital license becomes inaccessible when an account is closed or deleted. A vinyl record or printed book can remain usable across generations.

Right, so "they" can (and do) take away your purchased content basically at any time. You don't even purchase the actual content anymore. Is anyone actually doing anything about it? How successful are they? The only well-known way of actually owning your content seems to be piracy.

ghaff 4 hours ago|
Or, for certain content, buying the CD, DVD, or book.
doginasuit 4 hours ago||
It is important to weigh the transient nature of any purchase. A physical copy may be lost, damaged, stolen, become unusable due to lack of hardware, or just start to take up enough space that you decide its time to let it go.

In real life, as revocable as they may be, my digital purchases have withstood the test of time far better than my physical copy purchases. It matters who you buy from. It is understandably different for something you find value in having a physical collection.

Foobar8568 4 hours ago|
Dog eat dog Amped album is not present on Apple music and I suspect several streaming platform, and Remedy never again is not present on it as well https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Swarm_(album)
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