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Posted by HotGarbage 2 hours ago

Zuckerberg's Increasingly Bizarre War on Whistleblowers(pluralistic.net)
179 points | 63 comments
dofm 17 minutes ago|
It's not increasingly bizarre, really, if you just allow for the possibility of one thing:

There's something else worse that they know could be in such a book, but isn't yet, and it is so bad that it is worth doing this.

Perhaps they know that Wynn-Williams could have put it in the book and didn't. Perhaps they know that someone else — someone else British, say? — could write such things in a book and so far hasn't.

Once you assume their motivation is grounded in real fear, it gets easier to see why this isn't bizarre at all; it's inevitable.

bhickey 1 hour ago||
> Kaplan is an oaf whose plan to provide paid internet access to refugee camps falls apart once he learns that refugees in camps don't have any money (he also takes points off of Wynn-Williams' workplace evaluation for being "unresponsive" over a period when she was in a near-death coma).

The same Joel Kaplan who was involved in a coup?

akudha 36 minutes ago||
My guess would be - there is way more primitive explanation than setting an example etc (which is also a good reason, from their point of view). It is just plain ego and pettiness - we see it everywhere, even from a manager who has 3 people reporting to him. Why else would Zuck cheat on a board game, of all things? That too in private?

It might just be as primitive as "I have more money than God, therefore I am better than everyone else, nobody dare to challenge/disrespect me even in the slightest". Blind rage can make people do things that they themselves can't understand

kylecazar 23 minutes ago||
This applies to Elon's incredibly strange video game cheating scandal too.

It's pathetic and weird.

SpicyLemonZest 24 minutes ago||
Or perhaps Zuck didn't cheat on the board game, and the claim that he did is one of the purported falsehoods Meta says the book contains. That would also explain it.
SpicyLemonZest 27 minutes ago||
I don't understand the purpose of an analysis that goes on for pages and pages without even mentioning that Meta says Wynn-Williams isn't telling the truth. I'm not saying you have to agree with them! But if you don't acknowledge their stated position you're not going to be able to make sense of the situation.
ryandrake 14 minutes ago||
Of course they are going to deny. Whether or not they actually did the things claimed, there is no universe where denying isn’t the best tactic. So their denials in and of themselves don’t mean anything. Every single company accused of wrongdoing publicly denies, all the way up to and including when they settle or are found to have actually done the wrongdoing.
SpicyLemonZest 9 minutes ago||
Again, I don't think the fact that they're denying it requires you to agree. But if you want to develop an accurate understanding of the world, you have to acknowledge that they are denying it, and evaluate how well this denial explains their actions before launching into complex alternative theories.
ryandrake 50 seconds ago||
Given Meta’s (and their leadership’s) outward, visible, documented and repeated bad behavior, “wrongdoing” is not a complex alternative theory. It’s the simplest explanation.

So sure, acknowledge that they are denying. The only thing it explains is that horrible entities tend to deny horrible behavior.

unknownfuture 9 minutes ago||
Then take her to court for libel and prove it. Facebook execs have absolutely not earned the benefit of the doubt, here.
SpicyLemonZest 1 minute ago||
[delayed]
nilirl 58 minutes ago||
> denied her access to the legal system in all her dealings with Meta

How ... how is that legal? Why would that ever be made legal?

Apparently businesses can use contracts to opt out of regular public courts and agree on using a neutral decision-maker; an arbitrator.

But then the post says:

> Meta got its arbitrator – a lawyer who is paid by Meta to adjudicate contractual disputes instead of an actual judge

Huh? How's that legal?

Turns out, the law requires arbitrators to be neutral, but not the people choosing the arbitrators.

Arbitration services are businesses. So even though Meta doesn't directly pay the arbitrator, they pay the business picking the arbitrator.

Meaning, Meta has a long-term relationship with the arbitration service provider. They can choose to take their business elsewhere, if unhappy.

Imagine being Wynn-Williams, having a company of this size put a target on your head. I wonder how many live in silence because the paycheck is too good or the punishment too bad.

But an even larger point: most of HN is probably employed by a company that aspires to be Meta; HN is run by a VC fund that wants to make many Metas; and worse, unfortunately, I sometimes dream of being a Zuckerberg.

I am thoroughly seduced by a power I've never felt, even if I see it as poison.

grayhatter 18 minutes ago||
> I am thoroughly seduced by a power I've never felt, even if I see it as poison.

Meditate on the idea of the negative sum game the people who seek power prefer, and then about what you'd rather see them, or yourself do with that power. Because of the things I actually care about, I find that random fantastical/idealistic desire for power to be hollow, something much easier to see in comparison. I don't care about power, for powers sake (the best way, perhaps only way, to obtain power itself). All my power fantasies involve some sort of stopping people from using their power to abuse and take from others.

There's nothing wrong being seduced by power, if you're worried about how it might corrupt your ethical principals, just don't be foolish enough to copy the small minded power seekers (humans do love to emulate the people the see around them). You can seek and hold power, and then use it to do good things. Is that harder? Probably, but I can't articulate a single reason it would be harder than doing good things without power, which most people already don't do. So don't be tricked into power being the thing that corrupts. Most people are just shitty, and very few have meaningful power; sample bias can be a bitch.

CPLX 30 minutes ago||
It’s not legal. There is a current federal lawsuit on this exact topic.
breppp 16 minutes ago||
Quite an amazing feat by the author of the book to absolve herself from any responsibility for what happened, and triumphally sanctify herself as a silenced martyr
LightBug1 1 hour ago||
I submit that the human brain isn't equipped to handle control of multi-hundreds of billions of dollars cap and the working lives of hundreds of thousands of individuals. Particularly if you're morally suspect to begin with.

This is just one of countless obvious examples.

ceejayoz 1 hour ago||
Especially once you start icing out people who push back.
smt88 1 hour ago|||
FDR is a very interesting case study. He had the country in the palm of his hand and could have cemented his (or his party’s) power permanently, but instead he left the republic intact.
hyhatqtv 59 minutes ago|||
Well actual dictators generally do those things because they need to subvert the constitutional to stay in power. Roosevelt didn’t need any of that in order to make sure he remained president for the remainder of his lifetime.

After all there was a constitutional amendment pass soon after to stop any president from doing what FDR did.

yard2010 1 hour ago||||
As The President told FDR in Rick and Morty: "Try having an historical administration after Facebook goes online, you old-timey bitch!"
djeastm 1 hour ago||||
Hmm... Didn't he try to pack the Supreme Court?
hyhatqtv 57 minutes ago||
He and the congress (and probably most of the country would have supported it) . There is an argument to be made that the Supreme Court was at least partially usurping the powers of the legislative and executive branches to impose its political policies.
kmeisthax 16 minutes ago||||
FDR actually kinda did do that. He broke the Washington precedent and ran for President four times, he scared the Supreme Court shitless to the point where they signed off on blatantly unconstitutional land grabs against Japanese emigrants, and the Democratic Party was able to ride high on the fumes of the Progressive movement for decades afterward.

We don't think of him as a dictator, because a lot of what he did was ultimately reforms necessary to maintain America as a republic. The alternative would have been Nazi America. But he was still exercising dictatorial power, and he was responsible for massively increasing the power of the Presidency as a result. Hell, part of the reason why Trump is so dangerous is specifically because of the damage FDR did to the checks and balances on the Executive Branch.

lokar 1 hour ago|||
That’s not what the right thinks. They are obsessed with him and rolling back the new deal.
hyhatqtv 55 minutes ago||
The New Deal was mostly rolled back a while ago. After all corporatism did generally fall out of fashion for after WW2 (and of course there was quite a bit of opposition of state planning due to geopolitical reasons in the 50s and later)
wat10000 1 hour ago||
Money is power. Power corrupts.
yard2010 1 hour ago|||
It might be the other way around. There are powerful people with money that simply behave. A few assholes turn things into shit for everyone, when they also have money it just becomes worse.
smt88 1 hour ago||||
I wonder if power actually corrupts, or if it’s really that attaining power requires pretending to be a good person, and the mask can fall off after the power is attained.
raverbashing 1 hour ago|||
I don't think it's fair to blame money in this case
jjgreen 1 hour ago||
Zuckerberg knows that threatening Wynn-Williams for standing in wooden silence on a stage makes him look like history's most guillotineable billionaire.

There's quite a bit of competition out there ,,,

mc32 1 hour ago|
I kinda get the hate but harking back to the la terreur doesn’t do anyone any favors and instead will engender strange bedfellows.
Waterluvian 32 minutes ago|||
I think some people imagine the rule of law to be a replacement for the law of nature. I think it sits in front, protecting all parties from a much more violent form of justice.

If billionaires fail to support the rule of law, especially if they wield their immense power to press on the scales, they should not be surprised when people lose faith in the more civil option.

jjgreen 21 minutes ago||||
I'd be a happy tricoteur
tetris11 52 minutes ago||||
It took the literal burning down of aristocratic homes during the english reforms of 1832 for the House of Lords to finally sit down with Earl Grey and hash out a bill that would finally grant large populated cities like Manchester actual voting rights.

The French Revolution was still fresh in minds of these elites - the July Monarchy having just taken place - and yet still they let it escalate to the point of near civil war.

JumpCrisscross 19 minutes ago||
The point is a guillotine somewhere else is good. Guillotines at home don’t particularly hurt the rich as a class. (It’s debated whether France’s elite actually consolidated wealth and power through its revolutions.)
hedora 54 minutes ago||||
Do you have a concrete suggestion that is better in some way?
gilrain 36 minutes ago|||
Oh, well better let them destroy everything with greed then. Wouldn’t want to break, like, five eggs to save every other egg in the world…

The ethics become laughably simple, with as far as they’ve taken the resource imbalance. They should be very worried.

SpicyLemonZest 15 minutes ago|||
You generally don't get to choose how few eggs you'd like to break. As Olympe de Gouges found during the French Revolution, revolutions tend to be run by people who enjoy the process of breaking eggs, and if you call for it to stop they may decide that you are an egg who needs breaking.
mananaysiempre 22 minutes ago|||
The phrase about omelette and eggs (or rather its direct counterpart, about timber and chips) ended up as the unofficial primary justification for Stalin’s Great Purge, so the point about strange bedfellows stands. Twentieth-century Russia is in general a good example of what happens when you systematically eradicate the country’s elites, regardless of how unfairly they have gotten into the position or how miserable everybody else is.

The broader point, dating back to at least the French Revolution, is that once you establish the precedent that killing opponents is a way to win, it only takes a decade or two before the most ruthless killers become the winners. All proxy metrics are bad, including electability, but this one is especially awful. I’m more puzzled by why some violent movements do seem to have had some success than by why most didn’t.

kleton 38 minutes ago||
> Zuckerberg knows that threatening Wynn-Williams for standing in wooden silence on a stage makes him look like history's most guillotineable billionaire.

That might be a bit generous to assume that he has this theory of mind

jacobgold 43 minutes ago|
Meta said in a statement that its “she accepted a large severance payment years ago...”

This is the only point from Meta that is legitimate. If she accepted payment in exchange for signing an NDA and then violated it, the appropriate remedy in this should be that she returns the money.

Which doesn't change the fact that Zuckerberg should be ashamed of using NDAs as a weapon like this. It's very small minded from a man who clearly wants to see himself as a great man of history.

bob001 32 minutes ago|
> using NDAs as a weapon like this.

This is standard in companies. I've seen companies give a pittance in exchange for a binding NDA and the person took it because they needed to pay rent that month. Meta is evil but in this case so is almost every other company and especially tech companies. Also, giving it back doesn't undo the contract, the deal was done.

jacobgold 26 minutes ago||
Yes, NDAs are very common, but there are more and less ethical ways to use them.

A judge can decide to invalidate the contract entirely, which is what I'm suggesting would be the correct remedy in this case.

consensus1 2 minutes ago||
What grounds are there to void this contract that was agreed on my both parties?
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