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Posted by donohoe 7 hours ago

Samsung, SK Hynix, Micron Sued in US over Memory Price Fixing(en.sedaily.com)
199 points | 94 commentspage 2
mattfrommars 4 hours ago|
Anyone know what will lawfirms cut if they win from the lawsuit?

How many millions are we talking.

WarmWash 5 hours ago||
Just a reminder that anyone can file a lawsuit over anything, and the initial complaint is written by lawyers and reads with tabloid levels of sensationalism and allegation. The goal being to maximize the appearance of harm as much as possible so the suit has the greatest chance of sticking.

It is not in any way, shape, or form a ruling much less even a piece of well researched work. It's "my side of the story that makes me look perfect, with lawyers turning the heat up to 11"

SoftTalker 5 hours ago||
In reality a lawsuit needs to have some basis. The bar might be low but judges frown on having their time wasted with a truly frivolous claim or a claim with no clear damages or harm shown.
buckle8017 4 hours ago||
That might have been true at some point in the past and the judiciary might even feel that way still.

However the practical penalty for filling absurd lawsuits is zero unless you do it repeatedly to random people for a decade.

Absolutely nothing bad will happen to the plaintiff or the lawyers representing them in this case.

Western legal systems are broken.

Cthulhu_ 5 hours ago||
Honestly a lot of lawsuits feel like they just want the other party to pay them (settle) to make the lawsuit go away, even if there is no case; what are the repercussions for a frivolous lawsuit?
vablings 4 hours ago|||
Realistically very few. The plaintiff carries the burden of proving the claim, but they are afforded the power of the law to do so via discovery. The defendant then has to spend a large number of legal resources refusing the claims and also providing the evidence required.

If the plaintiff loses the lawsuit a countersuit is pretty unlikely to succeed unless the lawyer participates in gross misconduct. Generally, countersuits are filed more to put the original plaintiff on the defense and don't result in a large judgement.

If you are operating in good faith, then you are pretty insular from kickback as a plaintiff

lotsofpulp 4 hours ago|||
>what are the repercussions for a frivolous lawsuit?

None, hence the high price of liability baked into basically everything in America. And not just in nominal prices, but in terms of things like restricting access to spaces, restricting access to information, etc.

tribal808 4 hours ago||
everything is political
varispeed 4 hours ago||
Price fixing is legal as long as your are doing it in the open. In the UK it is called "price match" and eg. if supermarket says they keep prices matched to their competitor. No regulator raises an eyebrow.

So here Samsung and SK Hynix could say they price match to Micron and they are in the clear.

dcrazy 4 hours ago||
> Price fixing is legal as long as your are doing it in the open.

In the U.S., competitors are allowed to act in similar ways in response to economic realities, as long as they each arrive at that decision independently. But publicly anchoring your price to a competitor’s is potentially illegal.

> Price fixing is an agreement (written, verbal, orinferred from conduct) among competitors to raise, lower, maintain, or stabilize prices or price levels.

[Emphasis added]

https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/gui...

bryanlarsen 3 hours ago||
Identical prices are often a sign of intense competition. Every gas station on a corner has the same price because it's a highly competitive market not because of collusion. The prices of the much more lucrative chocolate bars inside the gas stations are less likely to be identical.
dcrazy 3 hours ago|||
Yes, the gas station example is directly cited in the article I linked to. It’s legal for a gas station owner, with knowledge and consideration of a competitor’s price, to reduce their price to the same or just below. What is illegal is for nominally-competing gas station owners in an area to conspire to keep their prices within a range of each other’s, even without explicit agreement.
bryanlarsen 20 minutes ago||
The article you linked seems to indicate that there has to be active communication between the gas station owners for there to be collusion.

When I worked at a gas station as a teenager there was definitely an unspoken implicit agreement that the price of gas would be 6 cents/liter above wholesale IIRC. Which was highly competitive and didn't completely cover costs.

lightedman 2 hours ago|||
"Every gas station on a corner has the same price because it's a highly competitive market not because of collusion."

Huh? I can go to most any gas station-occupied intersection and you will always find two that match and one (usually a Persian-owned Chevron) which is consistently a dollar or more higher per gallon across all grades of fuel.

dcrazy 2 hours ago||
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gruez 4 hours ago|||
>Price fixing is legal as long as your are doing it in the open. In the UK it is called "price match" and eg. if supermarket says they keep prices matched to their competitor. No regulator raises an eyebrow.

No, the key term is "collusion", which could be done in the open or not. If a competitor told you they were unilaterally raising prices in secret, that would still be legal. Where you get into trouble is if you are cooperating to set prices. And no, this is all determined by a judge so cute workarounds like "I'm telling my competitors that I'm raising prices then gauging his body language" won't work.

bryanlarsen 3 hours ago||
I worked in a small town gas station as a kid. We always phoned our competitor to let them know when we were changing our prices, and they extended us the same courtesy. Usually we followed them, but sometimes we didn't.

Gas prices are posted on massive highly visible signs and are public information. This wasn't collusion, it was a sign of intense but friendly competition.

vablings 4 hours ago|||
That is not what price fixing actually is. In the UK "price matching" is a one-to-many relationship meaning that the price of goods is set to the "lowest available"

Price fixing is a many-to-one all the manufactures agree to the highest prices they all agree on and set it there.

varispeed 2 hours ago||
You are arguing semantics. Effect is the same.
jackb4040 3 hours ago||
Price match creates downward pressure, nobody is gonna sue over lower prices.

This is like if you showed a supermarket that their competitor's oranges were more expensive, and they "matched" by raising their prices for everyone.

varispeed 2 hours ago||
That is your assumption without evidence. Once the targeted market knows others are tracking the price, it can up the price without fear competing market will undercut.
cute_boi 5 hours ago||
I think the only solution to this issue is China. If CXMT can supply, it will put all these monopolies in check.
Arubis 4 hours ago||
That’s a nice short-term solution. How do you envision adding an infinitely-deep-pocketed state-sponsored supplier to the mix over the longer term?
dabinat 29 minutes ago|||
Even if CXMT can only sell in China, that reduces the amount of memory China needs to buy from other manufacturers, thus benefiting everyone.
jackb4040 3 hours ago|||
What would the issue be, in the long term? I'm struggling to see a downside to more manufacturing capacity
russli1993 3 hours ago||
cxmt is also selling their memory similar to the big three. No one hardware company in their right mind will sell their products not as high as possible after you learn how much harder hardware engineer and fab people work for.
0xy 5 hours ago||
I think it's incredibly unlikely to be deliberate price fixing this time. Demand is too high.
mDyJzDPmBdG 4 hours ago||
There is no reason for there not to be a price fixing. But the OpenAI's announcement from 2025-10-01 about buying 40% of supply, removes any need for collusion. It was a public signal for everyone to rise prices, one that each company could figure on their own. And it will be very hard to prove otherwise.
Cthulhu_ 5 hours ago|||
Two things can be true; they could theoretically make agreements to limit supply, like the OPEC does to exert control over international oil prices. But the OPEC is all above board and there's plenty of international competition on the oil market.

But the challenge is in proving it.

ksec 3 hours ago||
It isn't like OPEC and oil where you can turn on and off bumping out from the ground.

The most expensive foundry / fab isn't the leading edge, it is the "empty" ones. You can't have a fab sitting idle.

jackb4040 3 hours ago|||
Prices skyrocketing create a perfect opportunity to slip in a little artificial bump and hope everyone blames the market. See also: egg prices in 2024.
russli1993 3 hours ago|||
if demand is too high, the market will adjust by adding supply. If Apple can't take the price of memory, why don't they make memory themselves. Oh no, the technical and manufacturing know-how is a barrier to entry and there is no talent available to make it. That is memory or semi companies' competitive advantages and their pricing power. It also takes Phd degrees to work at hardware companies. You can't have people doing leetcode for 2 months and todo apps and getting into the field and make 300k a year and hardware engineers wih Phds making 100k before this boom. It is long overdue for a rebalance of pricing power between hardware and software companies
Citizen_Lame 5 hours ago||
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yahavthehackern 3 hours ago||
[flagged]
xiphias2 5 hours ago||
,,The plaintiffs claimed the three companies reduced D-RAM supply under the pretext of transitioning to high-bandwidth memory (HBM). "The D-RAM oligopoly companies systematically coordinated the shift to HBM and the discontinuation of DDR3 and DDR4," they said. They added that Apple's recent sweeping product price increases were the trigger for the lawsuit.''

How can they do price fixing and discontinuing a product at the same time? It just looks like some companies are angry that AI / VC industry is outpricing them.

dcrazy 4 hours ago||
> An agreement to restrict production, sales, or output is just as illegal as direct price fixing, because reducing the supply of a product or service drives up its price. For example, the FTC challenged an agreement among competing oil importers to restrict the supply of lubricants by refusing to import or sell those products in Puerto Rico. The competitors were seeking to pressure the legislature to repeal an environmental deposit fee on lubricants, and warned of lubricant shortages and higher prices.

https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/gui...

xiphias2 2 hours ago||
But Micron didn't restrict the output: it stopped producing DDR2-3-4 completely, so it's not profiting from DDR customers at all.
dcrazy 58 seconds ago||
So they restricted it to zero?

Not saying I agree with the plaintiffs.

sysguest 4 hours ago||
hmm maybe the plaintiff should sue nvidia?
ndiddy 2 hours ago|
Looking forward to getting my $10 settlement 15 years from now like what happened with the DVD drive price fixing lawsuit (paid as a digital Visa gift card code so it can't actually be spent anywhere).