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Posted by drewfax 15 hours ago

Android Developer Verification: Threat masquerading as protection(f-droid.org)
1406 points | 581 comments
sambuccid 9 hours ago|
It doesn't solve the current issue, but in case we don't manage to push back on this, some people might not know that there are various actual linux OSes for mobile:

- SailfishOS: still linux based and seems fairly community inclusive, but the UI part of the stack is closed source. Is the only one officially allowed to run android apps, via emulation. Has existed for a very long time, it's lightweight and I think the most stable/bug-free in this list.

- Ubuntu Touch: fully open source and community driven, it uses snap packages for security, you might be able to run android apps. Last time I run it also seemed fairly stable/bug-free.

- PureOS: fully open source and privacy focused. I think it's the only one that, released with the Librem 5, can avoid using proprietary blobs for interfacing with the hardware. Seems less stable than SailfishOS and Ubuntu Touch. You would need to buy a fairly expensive-but-old phone(librem 5) to run it.

- PostmarketOS: fully open source, focused on being lightweight and revive old phones, has a huge amount of phones it has been tested on, is based on Alpine.

- Mobian: mobile version of Debian, it's fairly new on this list.

There are many more linux mobile OSes, but as far as I know these are the main ones. There might also be some inaccuracies on this post, I tested some of these a long time ago, and I never actually run the last 2.

janvlug 2 hours ago||
I'm using a Librem 5 as my daily phone. PureOS is actively developed and based on Debian. Monthly development updates are published here: https://puri.sm/posts/tag/advanced-readers/

Personally, I do not use Android apps on the Librem 5, but Waydroid is available in the PureOS repository. Waydroid is a container-based approach to boot a full Android system on regular GNU/Linux systems running Wayland based desktop environments (like PureOS).

PureOS also provides convergence via Phosh. Convergence means here that the same app can be used on a phone and on a big screen, the GUI adjusts to the available screen size.

Phosh aims to provide a daily-usable, robust and easy to use graphical user environment for mobile devices running mainline Linux. Phosh was originally initiated by developers from Purism for the Librem 5 phone but is nowadays used on many different devices covering smartphones, tablets and convertibles. It has even been seen on laptops.

maxloh 1 hour ago|||
Usability-wise, they are no match for Android and iOS—or even versions of them from five years ago.

UI/UX is costly, and most FOSS projects cannot get it right without massive investments from enterprises (e.g., Red Hat's UX designers heavily contributed to GNOME) or startups (e.g., Zed, Element, Bluesky).

Projects without that backing are mostly unusable, at least from a Gen Z perspective.

sambuccid 46 minutes ago|||
I agree that the usability is behind, as we would expect. For me mainly is about missing apps and some hardware support. But in terms of UX for example I liked using SailfishOS, although I'll admit the UI needs some getting used to.

But I prefer this to the feeling that I'm being limited on what I can do on Android/Apple, and the worry of being in a duopoly that allows the companies to worsen their products without ever fearing competition(as far as they do it in small chunks).

bigyabai 28 minutes ago|||
FWIW, I use my smartphone as an MP3 player, SMS messenger and TOTP auth. iOS and Android did that fine 5 years ago, I don't need Instagram or 8 Ball Pool to survive in life.
hollow-moe 8 hours ago|||
And all are useless because you can't use your mandatory bank or gov id app.
karussell 7 hours ago|||
Not useless. It is like the missing printer driver for Linux Desktop. It makes the experience ugly, but this is not the fault of the Linux OSes.

Also the bank should not require apps (instead they can offer hardware key support or desktop apps) and in fact some - at least in Germany - offer a different authentication possibility. Also the app for the German ID is published on fdroid and does not rely on Google services.

nextos 7 minutes ago|||
SailfishOS can run lots of banking apps with an Android emulation layer.
trinix912 7 hours ago||||
Good for Germans then. Slovenian banks won't let you use physical 2FA authenticators (for personal accounts and maybe even business ones at this point) anymore and will also require you to constantly update their stupid app (I've had to replace some otherwise good phones because the OS version wasn't supported anymore).
mr_mitm 7 hours ago||||
There are plenty of banks in Germany which offer over-the-counter services, if you prefer to do banking as if it's 1999. Most of the time, when people say it's impossible to live without a smartphone, it's actually only impossible to enjoy the conveniences of the internet without a smartphone (at least in Germany). Besides these rentable scooters, I can't think of anything that actually requires a smartphone. Sure, you'll miss out on a lot of conveniences, but I remember a time where that was the norm, so it's not like it's unreasonable.
paweladamczuk 52 minutes ago|||
To add to the sibling comment, you are also ignoring the fact that in 1999 nobody had those conveniences, everybody was on equal ground. In 2026, if you handicap yourself by rejecting those "conveniences", you will be met by friction at every step - lower productivity at work, impatient looks from your family members etc.
przmk 3 hours ago|||
The comparison to 1999 is not entirely accurate. It doesn't take into account that most physical banking locations closed down. At least here in Belgium for example, you have to go far to find one, and it's often on appointment only.
int_19h 6 hours ago||||
The question of how useful or not it is is orthogonal to whether it is the "fault" of Linux. Users who can't use it because something they need just doesn't work won't change their minds because the blame lies elsewhere.
tadfisher 1 hour ago||||
Does the F-Droid version of the app use hardware attestation?
JeremyNT 5 hours ago||||
We're moving to a world where it makes sense to have one cheap locked down phone with the society mandated garbage apps on it, and another device that you use for real computing.
wartywhoa23 2 hours ago|||
How about saying no to these "mandates"?
JeremyNT 1 hour ago|||
Android is going to bifurcate between "phones that run proprietary apps from the play store" and "phones that run software from anywhere else." And while maybe you can get by without banking apps, your life is going to get increasingly harder when you want to do many other things.

Ride hail app? Transit fare app? Government ID app? Airline app? Maybe you don't need them yet, but the best way to model this future is to consider what you'd do if you didn't have a phone at all, and the amount of friction this will generate as the expectations are only entrenched and expanded.

I'm glad people are saying no. It's good to do it as long as we can. But the final outcome seems inevitable now and to me it feels very close.

bigstrat2003 2 hours ago|||
We aren't given the choice, in many cases. For example I remember a poster here who was forced to have an Android or Apple phone because his kids' school required an app to pick up the kids after school. So his options were to get a big tech phone, or get in trouble for not picking up his kids. "Get the school to come to their senses" was, unfortunately, not an option available to him.
seba_dos1 1 hour ago||
I've been using several GNU/Linux smartphones as my only phones for the past 18 years (with a short exception around 10 years ago when I carried an Android phone too as there was a gap on the market) so I can say from first-hand experience that it's really not such a big deal as everyone keeps painting it. For these kinds of odd needs where you have no hope to fight back you just launch Waydroid, use the app and stop the container afterwards. However, when you do fight back it often turns out that this "mandatory app" isn't actually so mandatory and in turn you contribute to making the world around you a bit better.
alfiedotwtf 2 hours ago|||
Yes!

But as a Plan B, why aren’t we emulating Android on these devices (or is it the Secure Enclave that’s the spicy bit that these apps need)?

hurutparittya 2 hours ago||
Fortunately Google thought about this, so government ID and banking apps usually check that they are running on a sufficiently locked down and officially blessed phone through the Play Integrity API.

This makes emulation basically impossible.

stronglikedan 6 minutes ago||||
Except they're not useless because a lot of people aren't mandated to use any such apps. (And I feel sorry for those that are.)
codedokode 3 hours ago||||
In my country, partially due to sanctions, you can access the bank via browser and receive 2FA codes on $15 dumb phone. Also why do you need bank app on your phone? Do you like to give money to random strangers on the street? Only scammers need money urgently. Also it is not secure to use the phone as a single factor to access the bank.

I do not have any bank apps on my phone (it is not even connected to the Internet) and I have no problem.

RussianCow 2 hours ago|||
> Also why do you need bank app on your phone?

Many banks gate features like mobile check deposit behind the native app. The nearest ATM is 20 minutes away from my house, so unfortunately I consider this feature essential.

FractalParadigm 2 hours ago|||
How often are you still receiving physical cheques that mobile deposit is an essential feature? I could probably count on one hand the number of cheques I've deposited or written in the past ~15 years, nor can I say I've been so desperate to access said money that I feel the need to deposit the cheque within moments of receiving it.
RussianCow 46 minutes ago|||
At least 3 times a month. I have a rental property and my tenant prefers to mail a check instead of paying extra to pay electronically. My spouse gets paid by check for dumb reasons I won't get into. I sometimes get dividends from my insurance company via check. And then several family members still prefer to use checks to pay each other back instead of Venmo or other electronic services.

I blame it on the fact that the US doesn't have a free electronic bank transfer system like the rest of the developed world.

crysin 2 hours ago|||
Checks are still common in the good ole USA.
jp191919 1 hour ago||
Common? maybe for seniors. I probably handle a physical check once a year.
codedokode 2 hours ago||||
Interesting, I never saw a bank check. The companies typically transfer money directly into the account, and there are P2P transfers by a phone number working between any major banks. So I guess.. I do not need this feature.
unbalancedevh 55 minutes ago||
Two cases when I've received a bank check without being able to choose an alternative: 1) as payment of proceeds in a class-action lawsuit; 2) when I got a refund from my insurance provider after changing the terms.

These might not be very common, but they're still not really rare in society either.

cft 1 hour ago|||
Carry a second cheap smartphone, like Pixel -a series or iPhone -SE. That one should be used for banking, government apps, for border inspections, etc. On your main GrapheneOS phone your financial app should be a Bitcoin wallet. The main phone should be off or in the BFU state when you are in a vulnerable situation.
RiverCrochet 2 hours ago||||
In a town nearby me (not really near me but within an hour's driving distance), sometimes I will see old people selling fresh fruit/vegetables in their front yard. They typically take cash, Cashapp, or Venmo. It's super convenient to be able to use Venmo in that situation. These are people I haven't met before.
codedokode 2 hours ago||
I usually pay with cash. As a nice bonus, cash works even if there are mobile Internet shutdowns or blackouts and they cannot block the cash in your wallet unlike a bank account.
me551ah 2 hours ago||||
I can do everything on my bank app from prepaying small amounts of a loan, spend analysis, opening fixed deposits and such.
carlosjobim 1 hour ago||||
Some banks require 2FA through their phone app to login to internet banking on the computer.
GoblinSlayer 2 hours ago|||
App can work as digital money without card reader, maybe even free, like bitcoin.
RegW 7 hours ago||||
I don't have a mandatory bank or gov id app. Where are you living?
Grombobulous 6 hours ago|||
Apparently much of Europe is a strange banking dystopia.

Perhaps the antiquity of the US banking system is finally coming in handy. I’ve still got my checkbook ready to go!

gpvos 2 hours ago||
I'm still living in the Netherlands without a bank app. It's occasionally less convenient, but quite doable.
seba_dos1 1 hour ago||
I'm living in Poland and the only thing my bank's application gives me that its website doesn't are mobile TOTP-based payments - and even then it just works in Waydroid, so I can still use it on a GNU/Linux phone if I want to.
LtWorf 6 hours ago|||
In sweden it's not "mandatory" in the sense that it's illegal not to have it. It's just really really complicated to live without.

Many services won't work at all.

GreenVulpine 2 hours ago||||
Online banking is a thing. A heck of a lot more secure than an app on a certified android device passing play integrity but having last received security updates years ago and with a ton of privilege escalation exploits. Gov id? Just say no.
janvlug 2 hours ago||||
I oppose appdwang (although that can be hard, but until now I managed). Learn more about appdwang at https://appdwang.nl/ (in Dutch).
throwburn202605 7 hours ago||||
Might be worth trying to get your gov to pin down the number of users or process to get gov id supported on any new platform.

They likely wont specify 100k people or 10% of population or whatever email/petition but it at least records the requirement that other OSes exist and requires a process to support

1vuio0pswjnm7 1 hour ago||||
This bogus "justification" for not considering any alternative, non-corporate mobile OS on any phone makes no sense

HN commenters will not let it go

Most HN readers have multiple computers, including multiple phones

There is no requirement that one has to run a closed-source banking or government ID app on the same phone as open-source apps, e.g., apps from F-Droid

And it ignores countless people who do not and will never use banking or government ID apps

I tested a banking app for depositing a paper cheque and it was incredibly convenient. At the same time, the app tried to make a plain, unencrypted HTTP connection to www.google.com

I blocked these connection attempts and the app still worked, with plenty of phoney error warnings. I would not be comfortable leaving one of these apps installed on a phone that's charged, powered on and has a cinnection to the internet

Every user is different but it makes no sense to argue on HN of all places that these closed-source banking apps are essential for everyone. Many HN users are never going to use these apps, and rightfully so

dathinab 2 hours ago||||
I mean gov id app really doesn't matter (for now) you can just use you id card which is credit card sized. (For now has things might change wrt. age verification.)

But banking apps are a problem.

It's not even about the main online banking (you can use a web portal) or storing a EC digitally in you phone (convenient but really unneeded).

The problem is dump, misguided 2FA apps. E.g. credit card 2FA which already mostly required Android/iOS to work or even online banking login 2FA, transaction 2FA etc. with same requirement.

Currently for the later I can still use other methods but for a huge amount of Banks where I live you can't use a credit card (reliably) without Android or iOS as "carrier" for an 2FA app.

goldenarm 6 hours ago||||
I switched banks and made sure it doesn't require Android/iOS. Many banks propose FIDO2 + SMS, even bank of america does.
axus 5 hours ago||||
I don't use bank or gov id apps, why are these mandatory? Country-specific?
mrsssnake 5 hours ago|||
Weird definition of useless.
hypfer 8 hours ago|||
There's also FuriOS with the FuriPhone.

That's debian based with gnome and seems to be built by capable people. Also, it can run android apps.

mghackerlady 1 hour ago|||
I really wish SailfishOS supported more hardware. I love sony phones, but the sony phone I love the most isn't supported despite being nearly identical to a supported one
armadyl 6 hours ago|||
All of which have beyond horrific security. GrapheneOS is the only acceptable alternative from mainstream Android.
nativeit 2 hours ago|||
Don’t they have standard Linux security? Does my phone need to be more secure than my production web server?
HybridStatAnim8 2 hours ago|||
Linux security is quite bad. Android tries to improve this and GrapheneOS improves it even farther than that.

Which device you need to be more secure depends on your needs and which device you put sensitive data on, but a mobile device is going to provide far better privacy and security than any desktop hardware or OS is currently capable of.

imkac 2 hours ago|||
[dead]
gpvos 2 hours ago|||
It's a pity DivestOS has stopped.
einpoklum 7 hours ago||
Which phones are supported by which of these operating systems? And can you provide some relevant links?
sambuccid 1 hour ago||
- https://sailfishos.org - https://docs.sailfishos.org/Support/Supported_Devices

They have few devices of their own (new one coming out this October) and they officially support many Sony Xperia devices. There are also many community ports.

- https://ubuntu-touch.io - https://devices.ubuntu-touch.io

They have 33 supported devices, some are being shipped directly with the OS or have an official agreement with the phone maker, while others are community ports. Even if community ports, they all seem to have high hardware support, and is all very clearly documented.

- https://puri.sm/products/librem-5 / https://pureos.net

They focus just on the Librem 5, and not everything is fully working but as I said they prioritised privacy and FOSS. The phone is old but the OS is still in active development.

- https://postmarketos.org - https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices

They focus on supporting as many devices as possible, currently they don't have "main" devices they support, but they plan to. They too have a very clear documentation on features available for each device.

- https://mobian.org - https://wiki.debian.org/Mobian/Devices

They target devices made with the intent of running linux, but also have a few ports to android devices.

---

You'll notice that there are a few devices that are more "linux-friendly" and that are supported by many of these OSes. Phones from Pinephone and Fairphone being the main ones.

khurs 11 hours ago||
Android users need to switch to Graphene.

Someone needs to create a Linux based mobile OS foundation - Google's domination is contrary to many large companies interests, and if Meta and many other such companies were approached, they may well donate large sums of money in their own strategic interests.

throwburn202605 9 hours ago||
GrapheneOS is currently the blessed child. Like CyanogenMod previously. They are "permitted" to access to Google Play Services because their work hardening Android currently benefits Google.

Once Google feels like there is sufficient stability and compatibility with hardened memory allocator and tagged memory (and when they can get Qualcomm to support it across their range), they will make harder, until impossible, for Graphene.

An old article [1] but:

> Google’s Android—and [Open Handset Alliance] members are contractually prohibited from building non-Google approved devices

So to compete you'd have to create a compatible Google Play Services as well as find a supporting manufacturer. Samsung managed their own competing apps and store [2] for a while along with Tizen, likely for leverage or theoretical pivot. But has since dropped that effort.

[1] https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/07/googles-iron-grip-on...

[2] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/07/google-bought-of...

grapheneos 4 hours ago|||
Your claims about this don't make sense. Google does not provide compatibility with GrapheneOS for Google Play services. They do not provide support for using it or fix the issues introduced in new releases.

GrapheneOS doesn't license Google Mobile Services (GMS), doesn't include it in the OS and doesn't have Google certification. It isn't permitted by the Google Play Integrity API device and strong integrity levels because it doesn't have a GMS license. Google doesn't offer any way for GrapheneOS to license it.

We're legally allowed to provide compatibility with Google Play via our sandboxed Google Play compatibility layer. Similar to APK mirror sites, we're also allowed to mirror the freely available APKs.

We've put enormous time into developing sandboxed Google Play compatibility layer and there's ongoing work to continue resolving edge cases we haven't covered. If Google wanted Google Play to be used outside of stock operating systems licensing it, they could make it work as a set of regular sandboxed apps without us needing a compatibility layer. Our baseline compatibility layer isn't doing anything they couldn't do themselves by making them apps handle being portable to operating systems not deeply integrating it into the OS with highly privileged access.

Zopieux 43 minutes ago||
Thanks for your hard work!
gruez 4 hours ago||||
>> Google’s Android—and [Open Handset Alliance] members are contractually prohibited from building non-Google approved devices

>So to compete you'd have to create a compatible Google Play Services as well as find a supporting manufacturer. Samsung managed their own competing apps and store [2] for a while along with Tizen, likely for leverage or theoretical pivot. But has since dropped that effort.

What's wrong with the upcoming partnership with Motorola where they work with grapheneos to get it suppported, but it's not preloaded?

thewebguyd 2 hours ago||
It's a nice effort, but without preinstalls you aren't going to capture the market except for the tiny percentage of enthusiasts which are maybe a fraction of a percent of the market.

Google needs to experience real competitive pressure, and you need preinstalls for that.

Same story for year of the Linux desktop. It's doomed to 5% or less of market share without preinstalls (which Valve & the various other PCs now releasing with SteamOS are changing)

But also, prohibiting OEMs from making or partnering with "non Google approved" OSes is ridiculous and I'm surprised that hasn't been challenged in court yet as an abuse of monopoly power.

grapheneos 25 minutes ago||
> without preinstalls

GrapheneOS has an official partnership with Motorola Mobility which is improving their next generation devices to meet our requirements and helping us port GrapheneOS to those. GrapheneOS will be officially supported on those devices with Motorola Mobility providing us with the stripped down hardware support code we need to support their devices with proper firmware/driver/HAL updates.

A bunch of companies are already selling devices with GrapheneOS installed. Those companies can start buying the future Motorola devices supported by GrapheneOS and doing the same thing with those which they already do with Pixels. Motorola can also specifically sell devices to other companies to sell with GrapheneOS with official support from Motorola.

> prohibiting OEMs from making or partnering with "non Google approved" OSes

It has been challenged in court and ruled to be illegal in South Korea and elsewhere. Regardless, it's only an inconvenience and can be worked around. Even if Motorola can't sell devices with GrapheneOS in many countries themselves, those can still be sold by other companies and Motorola can sell devices to those companies at wholesale rates where they can match the price of the non-GrapheneOS devices. Other than Google, most OEMs aren't directly selling most of their devices anyway.

murderfs 6 hours ago|||
> They are "permitted" to access to Google Play Services because their work hardening Android currently benefits Google.

Very little in GrapheneOS has gone back upstream post-Copperhead.

> Once Google feels like there is sufficient stability and compatibility with hardened memory allocator and tagged memory (and when they can get Qualcomm to support it across their range), they will make harder, until impossible, for Graphene.

What are you talking about? Google doesn't use hardened_malloc, and they literally invented MTE.

grapheneos 3 hours ago||
> Very little in GrapheneOS has gone back upstream post-Copperhead.

Most of what we've landed upstream has been post-Copperhead. AOSP made it increasingly difficult to contribute without being an Android partner and it's nearly impossible now. We've contributed elsewhere including to the Linux kernel and PowerDNS. We don't try to submit security improvements to the Linux kernel anymore based on direct experience of it not being worth the effort required but we still submit patches for bugs. We're not interested in arguing with upstream developers about whether security improvements are worthwhile so we won't contribute those changes to projects not enthusiastic about it. We've made recent contributions to various projects we use including PowerDNS because they don't make it too difficult to contribute.

> What are you talking about? Google doesn't use hardened_malloc, and they literally invented MTE.

Google didn't invent MTE or memory tagging.

Pixel 8 launched in October 2023 as the first production device with MTE and GrapheneOS began using MTE in production later that month. Pixel OS still doesn't use MTE by default and only began offering a way to use it with Android 16 via Android Advanced Protection Mode (AAPM). AAPM only uses MTE for a few core processes and apps explicitly opting into it which are nearly non-existent. It doesn't use it for the kernel, most of the OS or almost any user installed apps.

GrapheneOS uses MTE for the kernel, all of the base OS processes including apps with a tiny list of minor exceptions to work around HAL issues and many users installed apps by default. It supports opting into using MTE for all user installed apps by default and then disabling it for the ones not compatible with it which are becoming less common in large part due to GrapheneOS users reporting issues to app developers.

dryarzeg 10 hours ago|||
> Android users need to switch to Graphene.

Doesn't GrapheneOS supports only Google Pixel smartphones now? For most of the users, that would mean changing their phones beforehand. And if we're talking about common people (especially not in US), it's not even everyone who can afford that. Moreover, in my opinion, by buying Google phones you're feeding Google, and I, personally, would like to avoid that.

grapheneos 4 hours ago|||
The vast majority of smartphones don't allow installing another OS. Multiple Android OEMs have been restricting or fully phasing out supporting it. Among devices which do permit it, none have provided the hardware-based security features or driver/firmware update support needed by GrapheneOS beyond Pixels. Our hardware requirements are listed here:

https://grapheneos.org/faq#future-devices

GrapheneOS has an official OEM partnership with Motorola Mobility and a subset of their next generation devices will be provided official support for GrapheneOS. They'll be providing us with a more minimal form of hardware support code close to the standard Qualcomm and other vendor code, so it will be cleaner than Pixels. Our partnership with Motorola is non-exclusive so we're free to support other devices with the help of other OEMs interested in meeting our requirements, but no other OEM is working with us yet.

We can't use devices with an end-of-life Linux kernel, no firmware updates, no driver/HAL updates and no support for important hardware-based security features we use. Several devices of a lot of the way towards providing what we need and several next generation Motorola devices will provide it. Other OEMs can do the same.

arsome 4 hours ago||
Have you considered being less puritanical about these requirements? Surely there would still be strong benefits for many users on other devices which would only be able to run if these were relaxed.
grapheneos 3 hours ago||
Our requirements are for industry standard privacy/security patches and protections. We haven't set a high bar but rather have very reasonable requirements. There's nothing puritanical about requiring what we do for a privacy and security project.

Most people don't have a device permitting using another OS at all or without crippling functionality including security. They need to buy a device to use another OS as a production quality daily driver. The vast majority of GrapheneOS users bought devices to use GrapheneOS rather than using GrapheneOS because it was available for a device they bought without considering it.

We don't want people to buy devices which will stop getting privacy/security patches for the firmware, kernel, drivers and HALs after 2-3 years and are missing important security protections. If we support a device then people are going to buy it to use GrapheneOS. Few of the people who end up using it are going to be people who already had it.

We don't want to have a watered down form of GrapheneOS without the core protections including what we build with hardware memory tagging. Older devices which we discourage buying not providing all the current requirements is much different from adding new devices without those. Our recommended devices (Pixel 8 and later) provide all of the current requirements and we strongly discourage buying older devices without enough support time remaining or the current protections.

We have a serious OEM partnership because we stand by our requirements and haven't watered down GrapheneOS. An OEM working with us to improve their devices to meet our requirements and helping port GrapheneOS to those with full functionality is only possible because we don't poorly support anything able to run another OS.

GrapheneOS is open source and others are free to make incomplete ports to other devices under a different name. Many individuals and companies have done this and it hasn't gained any significant interested. It doesn't provide what GrapheneOS does and the expectations of our audience are much higher. Our audience doesn't want a device with 2-3 years of delayed security patches for the firmware, kernel, drivers and HALs follow by end-of-life.

khurs 9 hours ago||||
Yes but they have signed up with Motorola so that is changing

https://www.androidauthority.com/grapheneos-motorola-partner...

preisschild 10 hours ago|||
> Doesn't GrapheneOS supports only Google Pixel smartphones now?

For good reasons. Most other devices arent secure enough to guarantee privacy. Especially not if loaded with a custom operating system (most devices don't allow to verify the boot chain with a custom OS)

> And if we're talking about common people (especially not in US), it's not even everyone who can afford that.

You can get a new Pixel 9a here in europe for around 350€ and it will be supported at least until April 2032

> Moreover, in my opinion, by buying Google phones you're feeding Google, and I, personally, would like to avoid that.

Google phones are surprisingly open and work well. Google takes a pro-user stance here that is extremely rare in the ecosystem, so why not support this product?

spaqin 9 hours ago|||
It's alright, whatever the reasons might be, but let's not pretend there are no other ways out. I'm content with newest LineageOS on my 7 year old mid-range Xiaomi. I don't mind the loss of privacy guarantee. I don't have to spend any extra 350 euros and lose the headphone jack in the process.
grapheneos 4 hours ago||
An end-of-life Xiaomi device with no privacy or security patches for the firmware, Linux kernel, drivers and HALs for years doesn't provide the bare minimum for protecting user privacy and security.

It would theoretically be possible to port it to a newer kernel but that's not within the scope of LineageOS. It doesn't do that so there aren't Linux kernel updates since the kernel branch has been end-of-life for years already. It would also theoretically be possible to rewrite all the userspace drivers and HALs, but it's not being done. The firmware is a different story since it's usually signed and requires vendor support. It's important too since it's exposed to remote attacks via cellular, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, NFC, GPU (web browsers, etc.) and more.

tredre3 2 hours ago||
> An end-of-life Xiaomi device with no privacy or security patches for the firmware, Linux kernel, drivers and HALs for years doesn't provide the bare minimum for protecting user privacy and security.

Your very rigid view of the world is so distorted to the point of being absurd. You know damn well that the vast, vast majority of spying on Android is done in userspace.

A good OS that allows you to remove permissions from apps and further isolate things does a lot for privacy.

I respect your desire to refuse supporting anything but pixels, but please don't pretend that alternate OS on old devices don't improve privacy and security.

Frankly, that kind of rigid attitude/black and white thinking might be why you find it so hard to collaborate with upstreams.

HybridStatAnim8 2 hours ago|||
An objective and accurate assessment of the available options is not absurd, its the bare minimum.

As the userspace improves, more attacks will be (and are) directed at the kernel, the linux kernel is already really bad for security, and it is absolutely vital to keep updating due to its architectural deficiencies and constant issues.

Alternative OSs on subpar hardware do not improve privacy or security. They do the opposite. Other hardware does not provide vital hardware security features, and many OEMs do not provide yellowboot or any proper way to relock the bootloader with another OS. Verified boot is very important for security.

Note that the OEM provides firmware images, an end of life device can never be secure because it lacks critical firmware updates.

This isnt subjective, this isnt rigid, and this isnt a matter of attitude. This is fact.

thewebguyd 2 hours ago||||
I don't think its rigid at all. Its important to continue to be able to receive security updates. If a device can't, mostly because qualcomm/firmware no longer wants to bother 6 months after release, it's DoA.

We don't go around telling people that it's OK to still run Windows XP for the same reason. Why is/should mobile be any different?

Stop being OK with manufacturers having garbage support. It's completely unacceptable.

GoblinSlayer 1 hour ago||
The dichotomy here isn't grapheneos or updates, it's grapheneos or android.
galangalalgol 1 hour ago|||
But on a Linux kernel that old userspace is kernelspace. There have been so many privilege escalation exploits in the kernel since then there is no difference. Every app you install effectively runs as kernel or root if it wants to.
secult 9 hours ago||||
So to avoid google's android I buy google phone to not run android?
Cider9986 36 minutes ago||
Yes, currently Pixels are the only phones with support for the hardware security features GrapheneOS requires.

In 2027, you will be able to use the Motorola flagships to run GrapheneOS.

Grapheneos is still based on Android.

Forgeties79 10 hours ago|||
> Google phones are surprisingly open and work well. Google takes a pro-user stance here that is extremely rare in the ecosystem, so why not support this product?

Because they will pull the rug here one day too. Why on earth should we trust them to keep this approach to their hardware?

NoGravitas 13 minutes ago|||
You can't trust Google not to pull the rug. That's a big part of the reason GrapheneOS now has a deal with Motorola for the next generation of devices.
grapheneos 4 hours ago||||
The vast majority of smartphones don't allow installing another OS. Multiple Android OEMs have been restricting or fully phasing out supporting it. Among devices which do permit it, none have provided the hardware-based security features or driver/firmware update support needed by GrapheneOS beyond Pixels. Our hardware requirements are listed here: https://grapheneos.org/faq#future-devices

GrapheneOS has an official OEM partnership with Motorola Mobility and a subset of their next generation devices will be provided official support for GrapheneOS. They'll be providing us with a more minimal form of hardware support code close to the standard Qualcomm and other vendor code, so it will be cleaner than Pixels. Our partnership with Motorola is non-exclusive so we're free to support other devices with the help of other OEMs interested in meeting our requirements, but no other OEM is working with us yet.

We can't use devices with an end-of-life Linux kernel, no firmware updates, no driver/HAL updates and no support for important hardware-based security features we use. Several devices of a lot of the way towards providing what we need and several next generation Motorola devices will provide it. Other OEMs can do the same.

dryarzeg 40 minutes ago||
[flagged]
grapheneos 12 minutes ago||
> copy your response

To avoid writing the same thing a 2nd time without forcing people to use a link and lose their place where they were reading.

> barely answers the question

We fully answered the question by explaining why we currently have to use Pixels and why we won't depend on Pixels anymore in less than a year. You're ignoring our explanation of our Motorola Mobility partnership. It explains why we need the partnership instead of adding support for devices without it too.

> But you answered with your text about how other smartphones don't have important "hardware-based security features".

No, we explained most devices don't even allow another OS and many of the ones which do cripple functionality including security so we can't support those. We also explained we need firmware, kernel, driver and HAL updates for a reasonable amount of time. We need the hardware-based security features we use to implement the core protections provided against attacks. It wouldn't be GrapheneOS without solid protection against remote attacks, apps and data extraction. We linked to https://grapheneos.org/faq#future-devices which lists out what we need. It's strange to ignore updates or put scare quotes around something we provided a detailed explanation for in the linked content.

sterlind 2 hours ago||||
they are already pulling the rug. Google took months to publish devicetrees for the Pixel 10. they've signaled (iirc) that they'll no longer make the Pixel line capable of running AOSP. the reason they even did at first was to make Pixel a reference implementation that vendors could use to port Android, but now they've announced a switch to an emulated device for that purpose.
cadamsdotcom 9 hours ago|||
Don’t defeat yourself in a one person battle.

After all, it might rain tomorrow - but you should still go outside today.

Forgeties79 8 hours ago||
My stance isn’t “give up.” My point is we should explore and expand non-Google alternatives for hardware.
kalx 11 hours ago|||
I tried. But then I didnt get access to essential services like banking and national resources.
AlexAltea 10 hours ago|||
FWIW, I submitted an EU DMA complaint (Art 27 report) against Alphabet for unfair gatekeeping against third-party distributions like GrapheneOS via Play Integrity. More info: https://github.com/AlexAltea/blog/blob/master/posts/2026-06-...

Convincing developers, especially bank and gov apps, is near impossible and won't scale well. Going after Alphabet for not meeting DMA obligations seems the easier path. Might not go anywhere but worth a shot.

frm88 9 hours ago|||
Is there something we can do to support your efforts?
AlexAltea 9 hours ago||
Only two things come to mind:

1. Provide or find pro bono legal resources deeply familiar with EU DMA and similar antitrust regulations, willing to proof-check and improve this report, and perhaps advise on better channels to submit it.

2. Locate more affected end-users, including applicable members of the GrapheneOS Foundation and developers behind other distributions, make them aware of these efforts so that hopefully we submit a joint complaint. (Might get more traction, though AFAICT reporting is limited to EU citizens).

Happy to fork this into its own repository if it helps with collaboration.

frm88 8 hours ago||
1. I will look into that.

A heads-up: the FSFE has already submitted a case for device neutrality regarding both, the ability to completely uninstall AI features and the unlimited interoperability decoupled from ADV: https://fsfe.org/news/2026/news-20260615-01.en.html

“Interoperability must be decoupled from developer verification procedures. We need clear, precise, and inclusive rules to prevent circumvention by gatekeepers and to ensure that interoperability becomes a concrete reality in practice” states Lucas Lasota, FSFE Legal Programme Manager

phantomathkg 6 hours ago||||
I can tell you it has NOTHING to do with developer, but more the business/content protection people say unlocked bootloader is not secured.
AlexAltea 1 hour ago||
GrapheneOS runs with a locked bootloader. You temporarily unlock during installation but after re-locking, boot integrity can be validated against GrapheneOS' verified-boot keys. See: https://grapheneos.org/articles/attestation-compatibility-gu...
preisschild 10 hours ago|||
> Convincing developers, especially bank and gov apps, is near impossible and won't scale well

Not impossible though, my bank and govt eID app did do safetynet, but after enough users complained in both apps you can now skip a warning and use it without issues

bluebarbet 5 hours ago||
The government and bank in question deserve to be named and praised.
preisschild 5 hours ago||
Austrian eID app (ID Austria) + Erste Bank/Sparkasse AG (George Austria)

AFAIK they make use of this: https://a-sit-plus.github.io/warden-supreme/integration/supr...

zerof1l 11 hours ago||||
Graphene OS user here. Almost all of the apps I tried work fine. All the banking apps I use work. Have you tried reaching out to the app developer or the service and explaining what Graphene OS is and asking them to support it? I was able to persuade one app to do it.

[1] https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compa...

kalx 10 hours ago||
Problem is that all banks require a national centrale controlled service for login (BankID in Norway). And it is this service that I cannot get to work running GrapheneOS. It worked a couple of months ago, but not anymore. And all customer services and complaints are directed to your bank who 1) has no idea what i am talking about and 2) no control over BankID verification requirements.
edb_123 8 hours ago|||
I did actually alert BankID about this potential lock-in issue back when they announced they would be abandoning the SIM-based (and thus phone-independent) solution, to little understanding and just general comments about the cost of keeping the SIM-based solution alive. I guess now with eSIM being prevalent it wouldn't have made much difference anyway.

But just the thought of the potential to be completely locked out of everything from banks to online payments, logins to the public health system, tax filings (and basically all public sector services) just at the whim of Google or Apple's automated algorithms misunderstanding some random account activity, is a thought that should make everyone (and especially those in countries dependent on systems like BankID) afraid and demand at minimum:

Rights to:

- Due Process

- Accountability from Google & Apple and fines for when they do wrong

- Multiple warnings (with a right to know what you're being accused of) before being locked out

- Well-functioning complaint procedures with strict time frames

- Make the mere concept of banning users "for life" illegal

...from Google and Apple (and strict fines for them not adhering to them). Feel free to add more to the list.

Else we as a society can't depend on a smartphone as the main key to our lives anymore.

tremon 8 hours ago||||
Raise the issue with both the consumer protection watchdog and the trade watchdog. This is a monopoly issue that's impacting consumer choice.
LadyCailin 10 hours ago|||
I’ve nearly decided to switch back to the code brick instead of BankID app. It’s less convenient, but with the way things are going, I’m just not sure I want to exist in the digital world much longer.
kalx 8 hours ago|||
Good idea. Maybe it wouldn’t be too bad to just attach the code brick to my keyring anyways.
tedodor 8 hours ago||
I switched to GrapheneOS a couple months ago, and the only real downside is that MitID (danish verison of BankID) doesn't work. I got the code brick and attached it to my keyring and it's honestly not that bad, I usually have the keys close by anyway. Also most apps that need MitID allow you to create a pin to log in without reverification once you've logged in once.
LtWorf 5 hours ago|||
99% of websites won't work with that one.

source: I eventually got bankid on the phone in late 2025

kalx 11 hours ago||||
Correction: i did get bank access. I just couldnt log into the bank without a google or apple controlled device.
feelamee 10 hours ago|||
lol, this problem stopped me from installing GrapheneOS early. But now.. I removed banking apps by myself because my state require room them to collect phone fingerprint and access to location EACH time they opened. So... looks like now nothing stops me
xandrius 9 hours ago|||
I would say Ubuntu Touch + a Fairphone. Graphene is too reliant on Google.
aquariusDue 11 hours ago|||
I keep hoping for something more radical like Jolla and SailfishOS taking off or postmarketOS becoming a true viable alternative but as things are looking like now there's a better chance we'll ditch phones altogether in 10 years when smart glasses will replace them instead.
pbmonster 9 hours ago|||
> we'll ditch phones altogether in 10 years when smart glasses will replace them instead.

Billions are spend right now to make sure the glasses also run Android or iOS. So far, Google, Samsung, Magic Leap, RealWear and Vuzix are working with/on Android XR, and obliviously Apple is working on AR/VR iOS.

Meta and a couple of smaller startups are doing something in-house, but I don't give them much chances to get an ecosystem going.

DaSHacka 10 hours ago|||
Honestly don't think that would be so terrible, with how bad and locked down the mobile ecosystem has gotten.

Rolling the dice on a new technology could wind up being much more favorable.

GuestFAUniverse 9 hours ago||
What /new/ technology? The basically same platforms. Just smaller phones with more cameras recording everybody without consent.
Arnt 11 hours ago|||
I know Graphene has innovative security measures, do you happen to know whether that includes anything wrt. phishing or social engineering?

(For those who haven't been following along: this whole affair started with phishing. People were social-engineered into installing an app and a little later their bank accounts were empty. A big issue in various poor countries.)

Aachen 10 hours ago|||
That's one of its primary arguments: besides the hardening against exploits, they're considered such a safe OS because you cannot access your data either and give the wrong app root access. Everything lives in a sandbox. Whether not being able to grant full access to e.g. adb shell, Termux, or Restic is what you want is a personal choice, but it adds a layer of security against any malware that tries to get you to grant them root access

This is also the argument they use to try to convince app vendors to add their keys to the allowlist, because the app makers can trust that their DRM will be active (if Netflix sets a "no screen recording" flag, you the user cannot circumvent it by e.g. reading /dev/fb0). It should have broader compatibility than other FOSS Android builds (when running the officially signed version of course, you can't compile it yourself and expect such apps to run there)

kuschku 9 hours ago||
So it doesn't actually do anything to give control of the device back to the user?

One of the core tenets of truly free software is that I as user must be able to run, access, edit, and view everything.

armadyl 6 hours ago||
You are free to make your own build of GrapheneOS with root access and have extremely reduced security. Just don’t expect support on the forums and waste everyone’s time when something happens.
kuschku 5 hours ago||
"extremely reduced security"

That's such a fun statement.

Any security measures taken always remove agency from one person and give it to another.

iOS takes my control away, and in turn gives that control to Apple. GrapheneOS takes my control away and gives that to the GrapheneOS developers.

The "security" you're talking about doesn't prevent certain data from being accessed, it just changes who controls the access.

If the user cannot be trusted with their own data, then there is no solution anyway. They'll just tell their private data to a scammer on the phone instead.

There is no solution against a user that wants to give their own data away, but if you try to prevent that, the only thing you'll accomplish is destroying general purpose computing.

HybridStatAnim8 2 hours ago|||
Root access takes agency away from you and gives it to 3rd party software. It doesnt expand freedom at all, it just allows other software to abuse the user.

With a proper security model and verified boot, you can be certain you, the user, are running exactly the OS you expect to run. You can also properly revoke permissions to software and gate access as you see fit. With root, you cannot guarantee you are running what you expect and apps have to exploit much less to get root access, or just keep root access if given by the user. You cannot revoke godhood, it can just lie and say you revoked it. There is nothing enforcing any security features.

kuschku 58 minutes ago||
I just don't get why we need to argue about something — the right to general purpose computing — which has been answered decades ago?

The user must be the administrator of their own device. Whether that's a laptop, desktop, PDA, mp3-player, smartphone, tablet, cyberdeck, netbook, or any other kind of computing device.

The user must be able to overrule any and all decisions. That's the definition of ownership.

Like, this was the reason why GNU was founded, and before that was the plot of the movie TRON.

HybridStatAnim8 25 minutes ago||
Being the administrator and being able to sidestep OS protections are not the same thing. Without root, the user is in control of what application does what and how. With root, the user is not. Root is not freedom or ownership, like many try to claim. Root is a hacky shortcut to proper functionality. You can build and sign the OS with your own keys, without undermining the security of your device, and adding whatever functionality you want with the principle of least privilege.

Its really funny because Tron, or at least Tron Legacy, is a great example of why godhood is dangerous and why a user and a program having root access is catastrophic.

gruez 3 hours ago|||
>If the user cannot be trusted with their own data, then there is no solution anyway. They'll just tell their private data to a scammer on the phone instead.

Security isn't binary. Putting up barriers makes it harder for scammers to steal money. There's a reason why they exploit malware to steal money, rather than asking their victims to send them crypto directly.

kuschku 3 hours ago||
> There's a reason why they exploit malware to steal money, rather than asking their victims to send them crypto directly.

The vast majority of scams literally work by them asking their victims to buy cryptocurrency or gift cards directly. Malware is exceedingly rare.

You know what would really help against scams? Avoid putting people in situations where they need to decide right now or they'll face punishment.

Modern society has created far too many situations where people need to react without being able to think through the consequences.

The only reason scams work is because there are enough actual situations with unnecessary life-or-death decisions.

gruez 3 hours ago||
>The vast majority of scams literally work by them asking their victims to buy cryptocurrency or gift cards directly. Malware is exceedingly rare.

Source? This article suggests otherwise: https://www.economist.com/interactive/asia/2026/04/10/scam-i...

Moreover it seems to be limited to south east asia for now. Just because you're in the US and all the scams you're getting is cold calls from microsoft tech support, doesn't mean scams with smartphone malware doesn't exist.

>You know what would really help against scams? Avoid putting people in situations where they need to decide right now or they'll face punishment.

>The only reason scams work is because there are enough actual situations with unnecessary life-or-death decisions.

In other words, "if we had world peace and everyone could hold hands and sing kumbaya, then we won't have to worry about scams!"

jabwd 10 hours ago||||
It is not an OS with bubblewrap, you can still mess up your privacy / security if you want to, that includes phishing and social engineering.
Aachen 10 hours ago||
Is anything bulletproof against the user signing away their data? I think the question was whether it has any measures in this regard, not whether it's impossible to get phished
Arnt 1 hour ago||
It's complicated… in a sense the bulletproof solutions are the ones that raise the cost of executing the attack above the average take. In another sense even they aren't bulletproof.

This particular attack requires getting users to sideload apps that would be rejected by the play store, and most users don't have developer mode enabled. Therefore, the cost of persuading someone to enable developer mode matters. If the procedure to enable developer mode changes from "open settings, scroll down, tap, scroll down, tap seven times" to include e.g. a 96-hour wait for developer mode to be enabled, then the cost of the attack rises by whatever it costs to stay in close contact with the victim for 96 hours, close enough to react if the victim comes close to realising the truth.

This isn't a guarantee. You can still get phished even if the phisher has to spend 96 hours in intensive contact with you. Some victims are worth that effort, maybe you are, and maybe the phisher made a mistake and puts in the effort to phish you based on the mistaken assumption that you're a millionaire.

There are also other things like that. If Google can ban the keylogger you use quicker than you can deploy new builds, for example. Still no guarantee.

preisschild 10 hours ago||||
> do you happen to know whether that includes anything wrt. phishing or social engineering?

Yes. For example if you install an apk from an unknown source (like a random website via browser or messenger) it will warn you what you are about to do and what effects that has.

You don't need to block stupid behavior. Just make sure users are well aware of their actions as long as they actually read warnings.

vlian2088 8 hours ago|||
my brother in Christ, people who root their phones don't fall for "Hello sir, I'm sir John from Microsoft, you have virus sir, please do the needful install antivirus and send gift card sir."
gruez 3 hours ago|||
Right, instead they download shady magisk modules that promise them free fortnite skins.
Fnoord 3 hours ago||||
1) Anyone can fall for a scam. Especially those who believe they wouldn't fall for a scam. This is why ridiculing those who fall for [a] scam is harmful, and serves scammers. 2) You can root a smartphone for someone else's usage. For example, I can install pmOS on a smartphone and hand it over to my kid.
armadyl 2 hours ago|||
You’re right, they just fall for installing updates or CLI tools which install compromised dependencies and run wild on a rooted system before getting caught 24 hours later.
vlian2088 1 hour ago||
on their phones?

also, 'rooted' means you have root access, not that you run everything as root.

hkgvk 11 hours ago|||
The only reason I have not switched Graphene is because for reasons I do not understand, Graphene OS is very closely tied with Google hardware.

I bought a /e/os Fairphone instead.

defrost 10 hours ago|||
Give it a year, we may have GrapheneOS/Motorola then ...

* (March 2026) Motorola announces a partnership with GrapheneOS Foundation - https://motorolanews.com/motorola-three-new-b2b-solutions-at...

cromka 11 hours ago||||
Those reasons are explained clearly and openly. Ironically, your /o/OS is way less open than GOS on Google hardware.
hkgvk 3 hours ago||
I just want to be as far from Google as I can. I do not want to buy google hardware. Graphene does not allow me to do that.
cromka 2 hours ago||
Not only you use Android OS developed by Google, somehow you choose a less open OS distribution, exposing you MORE to Google and their shit, only because you don't want to use their hardware that happens to actually be as open as it gets, including the firmware?

Why do you choose to die on that hill? It's ridiculous!

petu 9 hours ago||||
Pixels are consistently "third party Android builds friendly", plus GrapheneOS has a list of required security features (beyond their control): https://grapheneos.org/faq#future-devices

e.g. first one in the list:

> Support for using alternate operating systems including full hardware security functionality

GrapheneOS wants users to lock the bootloader (≈enable Secure Boot) after install by providing user signing keys (avb_custom_key) -- that already seems to leave only Pixel, Nothing and Fairphone.

https://github.com/chenxiaolong/avbroot/issues/299

cromka 2 hours ago||
Why don't they support Fairphone and Nothing, then?
HybridStatAnim8 2 hours ago||
These devices fall far behind the industry standard hardware security requirements GrapheneOS has.
gf000 10 hours ago||||
It's because only Pixel devices have proper hardware security to build anything secure on top.
hkgvk 3 hours ago||
Hardware security is irrelevant to me. I just want to leave Google behind me. I do not want Google's hardware.
cromka 2 hours ago||
So you chose to use Google OS, still? What the hell? Just switch to Apple!
prmoustache 9 hours ago||||
I bought a second hand pixel when I had to buy a new phone. Still better for the planet than buying a new fairphone anyway.
microtonal 7 hours ago|||
Sigh, /e/OS.

Your phone is running proprietary Google DroidGuard blobs in a privileged process every time an app initiates a Play Integrity request.

If you install some Google apps like Google Maps, they are run with more privileges than other apps (their microG fork gives apps elevated privileges when they match certain Google signing key fingerprints).

Also, your device is running a firmware bundle provided by Fairphone's Chinese ODM, including TCL image processing blobs. Your phone will soon run an ancient kernel and firmware tree with many known critical CVEs.

But this all doesn't matter anyway, because security hardening is only for spies and pedophiles according to the CEO of Murena (the company that makes /e/OS).

delta_p_delta_x 8 hours ago|||
> Linux based mobile OS

So, Android?

mghackerlady 1 hour ago||
yet another reason why the distinction between Linux and GNU/Linux is important
hulitu 9 hours ago|||
> Android users need to switch to Graphene.

Which supports only Pixel devices.

dolmen 8 hours ago||
The resason is that only Google bothers to put enough hardware security features to build software on top that allows to make a really secure device that blocks tampering.
einpoklum 7 hours ago||
That's not a reason. When the hardware doesn't have those "security features", then don't "really secure", just run without being "really secure".

I never treat my (Android) phone as secure anyway.

lern_too_spel 3 hours ago||
Security is GrapheneOS's raison d'être. If you don't want security, you can run another Android build that does run on the hardware you have.
Pacers31Colts18 9 hours ago|||
I get it, but it really sucks that Graphene only works on Pixel hardware. I switched to Samsung with my last phone.
BLKNSLVR 7 hours ago|||
Out of the frying pan into the fire...
GuestFAUniverse 9 hours ago|||
Korean manufacturers are even worse when it comes to privacy violations.

I use a Samsung too. The bloat, dark patterns and enshitification with every update are even worse.

Timshel 10 hours ago|||
Not really a solution at the moment if you do not want to give money to Google by buying a Pixel (hopefully the deal with Motorola will work).

Long term I would probably have more hopes in https://postmarketos.org/

cherryteastain 10 hours ago||
Buy second hand
krieger_857 5 hours ago||
not possible in countries where they don't sell them, import fees are astronomical
preisschild 11 hours ago|||
I wonder if it makes sense to create an independent hard-fork of AOSP in the future. But probably the only option to keep this somehow maintainable is to replace many android-specific components with other userspace linux components that are already well maintained (systemd, networkmanager, wayland)
kalx 10 hours ago||
Would this not require some control over the hardware? Which would be difficult for the FOSS community?
preisschild 10 hours ago||
maybe not, heck people reverse engineered apple hardware and implemented it in various FOSS driver stacks

But yeah, vendors maintaining their drivers upstream in FOSS projects would obviously make it easer

darig 11 hours ago||
[dead]
nusuth31416 11 hours ago||
I use Android because it lets me install whatever I want on my phone, which it does not seem to me, controversial. The phone is either mine or it is not. I don't want Google's protection. Particularly, if I can't refuse it.
aargh_aargh 1 hour ago||
That's a nice digital content you have there. It would be a shame if something happened to it...
kalx 10 hours ago||
Well… you can run android without google? The problem is that essential security services require apple or google devices and you as a member of society need the security services.
karteum 10 hours ago|||
> Well… you can run android without google?

You can only run LineageOS on smartphones that allow unlocking the bootloader (which is more and more rare), and properly release the kernel source-code (many still don't, especially low-end MTK-based phones...)

Aachen 10 hours ago||||
Yet on LineageOS you're not affected. It seems you can build Android that isn't affected by Google, at least if you're willing to personally adjust the code to do what you want. You'd have to get exceptionally busy before it's not recognisable as an Android distribution anymore
alfiedotwtf 2 hours ago||
How’s LineageOS compatibility these days? And besides F-droid, is there a place where mobile apps are plentiful without being full of malware?

Also, how’s isolation on LineageOS for mobile apps? I think I’m getting to the point where I’m thinking of ditching Apple again

realusername 10 hours ago|||
Let's call them anti-competition services since there's nothing in these increasing security.
pliuchkin 1 hour ago||
Google won't ever take a break until we all pay for YouTube Premium. I think this trojan horse is mostly because of apps like New Pipe, Vanced, SmartTube and ad blockers in general.
anilgulecha 13 hours ago||
I understand the frustration (I'm an avid fdroid user across many many devices). But this article comes off as childish with the virus/trojan/"malware vendor".

With such an article, many (including perhaps google) get the ammo to disregard what fdroid says, by branding them as childish/not to be taken seriously. for eg: no reputable news org is going to post this.

PS: https://keepandroidopen.org/ is better done.

econ 12 hours ago||
I thought the same thing but he apparently has a point. The stated purpose covers only a tiny sliver of the capabilities. The agreement points to the TOS where it (last time I looked) says service may be terminated at any time without stating a reason. Nothing guarantees it won't be used for things other than security. And finally he has a point where it also doesn't really do much for security.

If we ask their fine search engine, the AI helpfully explains malware to be software designed to gain unauthorized access to disrupt, extort payments and/or hijack devices.

If you still think the shoe doesn't fit, imagine what would happen if one managed to create an app with the same capabilities. Google would remove it immediately for being malware. Obvious malware.

r_lee 10 hours ago|||
I'd usually say it'd be far fetched

but I can totally see Google banning developers and removing their apps for political reasons, where some lobbying group bombs them with emails

because with this they're explicitly saying they're now choosing who gets to be in or out, there's no way for them to say we can't do anything about it

I do think this would improve security, but I also think it's sort of a Trojan horse to lock down the ecosystem

nok22kon 9 hours ago|||
> several Russian mobile apps related to the Russian internet company VK were deleted from the U.S. tech giant's App Store.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/kremlin-demands-explana...

surajrmal 3 hours ago|||
Banning it from the app store is different from banning from distributing their app on any surface. It's closer to Walmart choosing to not carry a product vs the government saying no one may carry that product. Of course both can happen for political reasons but generally the latter is a bigger hammer applied less often.
stingraycharles 11 hours ago||||
Isn’t Google going to do what Apple has been doing since forever? Or is Google somehow doing something worse?
RobotToaster 11 hours ago|||
I bought an android instead of an apple because I didn't want the kind of malware apple has always shipped with idevices
jb282 11 hours ago||||
Apple's policies were established when you purchased the phone. Apps come through registered developers and their vetting.

Google has changed the game on something you already own. I'm sure their lawyers have done their homework, but in some jurisdictions this is certainly actionable.

someonebaggy 10 hours ago||
They already lost a lawsuit and were fined a hundred billion dollars in the EU for locking down Android. Maybe they think since they already lost once, they can't lose again.
WarmWash 2 hours ago|||
Google had an open (but maybe not perfectly open) platform and is paying out billions in anti-competitive fines because of it.

None of the other platform vendors with totally closed platforms are paying out anything.

So with even a room temperature business IQ, it's pretty clear that closed platforms are the best way to do business, and court rulings in both the US and EU have affirmed this multiple times over the last decade.

surajrmal 3 hours ago||||
This is the remediation to that case and therefore has already been run by the EU. Notably, Apple did not get fined for the way they run their ecosystem which is far more locked down.
hurfdurf 10 hours ago||||
Hundred billion would be a quarter's revenue, that can't be right. The lasest I've read is a threat of a fine of around 500mil wrt app store issues back in December, but nothing has been decided yet.
r_lee 10 hours ago|||
hundred billion?
lern_too_spel 3 hours ago|||
No, you're still allowed to install whatever apps you want, whether they're verified or not, from the system app stores or not. What developer verification brings is the ability to install apps outside the system app stores without a warning, as required by the antitrust judgment against Google.

People here are complaining about a separate thing, which is that the process for installing an app outside a blessed way is changing, becoming harder for the first such installation and easier for subsequent installations on new devices.

nok22kon 9 hours ago|||
nothing guarantees the Microsoft/Apple/Ubuntu/RedHat will not push an update through their infrastructure to delete some software from your computer

all OSes have malware level capabilities. it's literally the definition of an OS

kuschku 9 hours ago||
> Ubuntu/RedHat

That still wouldn't affect projects like Debian or Arch, but going even further, they can't push through updates anyway. Nothing forces me to install updates, it's an active choice to do so.

0x53 11 hours ago|||
I think the point they are trying to make is that in the terms of service Google says they get to define what is malware (halfway through article) so the author is trying to point out that exact danger: what happens when Google gets to randomly call things malware.
PufPufPuf 8 hours ago|||
The article provides enough evidence for that label. Unlike Google, who can arbitrarily call anything "malware". This is the contrast the article attempts to point out.
realusername 10 hours ago||
I have the opposite opinion, Google is doing a lot of garbage in the name of "Security", time to play their game and report their control on Android as security vulnerability
willtemperley 10 hours ago||
> In computing, a trojan horse or trojan is a kind of malware that misleads users as to its true intent by disguising itself as a normal program. [1]

Google is Trojans all the way down. What is the true intent of almost every Google product? Data harvesting.

Every single product is spyware of some kind. They've even managed trojanize TVs by subsidising manufactuers to ship their spyware.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_horse_(computing)

sinuhe69 7 hours ago||
While attribution is a strong weapon in fighting malicious software, persevering the ability to install and run anonymous software is essential to fight authoritarian regimes and corrupt systems. If we accept that only signed, permitted software can be installed and run on users’ phones, democracy and our freedom are doomed. Regardless if it is in the West or the East, or it’s against an AI overlord.
dmos62 5 hours ago||
We can't make arbitrary changes to much of hardware and software we rely on. We can't inspect their designs, we can't reproduce them, sometimes we can't repair them. Sometimes we can't even tell that they're designed to act against our interests, and, if we do, sometimes we can't do anything about it. We are forced to choose between price and privacy, between interoperability with proprietary (or official) systems and liberty.

Android making another step in this direction is bad. But, let's not kid ourselves: we are neck deep in this cyberpunk serfdom, and have been for decades. If we were to get this Android win, it would be only a small win. I'm saying this not to be defeatist, but to remind us of the bigger fight.

How does this feudal goliath meet its end? When is enough enough?

schnatterer 7 hours ago||
Meanwhile in Luxembourg: Google loses fight against EU’s $4.7 billion Android fine https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/google-loses-fight-aga...
alok-g 43 minutes ago|
This change is so significant that it feels like they are changing the product after it is sold.

Could one stop this by disabling OS updates?

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