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Posted by toomuchtodo 5 hours ago

The Egg Bandits Made a Thousand Times the Fine They Just Paid for Price Fixing(www.thebignewsletter.com)
264 points | 115 comments
arjie 46 minutes ago|
Wow, well I have egg on my face. I have frequently used this as an example of the "oh so the egg guys got greedy and then got saintly" to parody the idea that price is primarily determined by greed. Welp! Now to see if I can eke out some pride by finding out what percentage of the price fluctuations was due to coordination.

> During the 2024 campaign, when Kamala Harris meekly suggested price gouging to tame inflation,...

Haha, she suggested going after price gouging. Though the idea of someone meekly suggesting price gouging is funny.

pocksuppet 34 minutes ago|
A thing can have many causes. One is the direct cause: the city exploded because someone pressed the button to launch the nukes and left the coordinates set to zero. Even more direct: the city exploded because a critical mass of uranium was assembled. There can be many indirect causes: someone put an idiot in charge of the nuke-launch button, someone forgot to put a molly-guard on the nuke-launch button, someone invented nukes.

Price is usually determined by producer greed because producer greed causes prices to consistently be set as high as possible. This is usually constrained by market competition, which limits how high they can be set. In rare cases, prices are set low by consumer greed.

A high price has a direct cause: the person in charge of setting prices set a high price. A little less direct: that person is incentivized to set prices as high as they can. Much less direct: there are currently few competitors due to avian flu; we have one of very few chip fabs that can make the widgets; our customers are locked in; our customers signed contracts allowing us to raise prices but forbidding them from cancelling when we do. Greed is always one of the more direct causes of high prices. The fact that capitalist markets use greed as an integral part of their normal functioning does not change this fact.

CGMthrowaway 43 minutes ago||
I did not realize the egg crisis was found to be price fixing operation.

As I recall during the whole thing the news was non-stop about how it was related to broad-based inflation, chicken culling for avian flu, etc. Seems like all that was a lie, or at least merely a half-truth.

pixl97 33 minutes ago||
Never let a good crisis go to waste, or so the saying goes.

The consolidation of food production in the US is a risk to us all.

kevmo 30 minutes ago||
The US economy is jampacked with collusion price fixing. Most markets are controlled by monopolies or oligopolies.
Taronar 2 hours ago||
Things like this mainly occur in markets with little competition, killing of small business causes issues like this. Much of our grievances are caused by our high level of market concentration.
stickfigure 1 hour ago||
This was addressed by Matt Levine in today's Money Stuff. The problem was not the presence or lack of competition, it was a technical failure of the market structure. Matt:

This is a familiar story and you probably know the ending. There’s a big market (egg producers selling eggs to supermarkets etc.), and there’s a small market (egg producers selling extra eggs to each other on an electronic exchange). The price in the small market determines the price in the big market. Participants in the small market are also participants in the big market. You can spend a little money in the small market to move the price, which can make you a lot of money in the big market.

Not defending the bad actors here, but there's that whole "show me the incentives and I will predict the outcome" thing. If the market structure rewards manipulation, you get manipulation. The market structure doesn't have to be this way.

arrosenberg 1 hour ago||
While Matt is technically correct, it's much easier to maintain a conspiracy like this when you have a small number of participants with a high concentration of share.

If power is more diluted among a greater number of participants you are way more likely to see defectors, which would provide accurate pricing data to the market and cause the conspiracy to fail.

edoceo 17 minutes ago|||
Can that be reduced to Prisoners Dilemma game theory?
lazide 1 hour ago|||
Or even better, folks actively trying to screw the market manipulators.
abeppu 2 hours ago|||
And notably, we used to have a somewhat progressive corporate income tax which, at least on paper, provided a quantitative disincentive against too much consolidation. Sometimes the merger of A and B would pay a higher rate than A and B separately. And we gave that mechanism up.
skeeter2020 49 minutes ago|||
I'm not typically a fan of government intervention in markets but Canada's marketing boards do stop this sort of concentration, so while we have higher average prices we do not get massive swings in prices, nor the physical conditions that come directly out of production consolidation that lead to events (or justifications) like avian flu at the same scale.
joe_the_user 45 minutes ago|||
Most true small businesses can't exist in markets with a lot of competition. Highly competitive markets have a lot of fluctuation and businesses with little capital fold when there's a downturn.

In fact, most markets naturally go from high competition to monopoly or oligopoly. You can see this in chips, cars, airplanes, steel, ecommerce(Amazon) and beyond. Indeed, many oligopoly situations only fail to be monopolies through either antitrust activity or through nation-states supporting their competitors (chips).

Agriculture in particular tends to be geographically dispersed so it's harder to have absolute monopolies. But some "harking back" claim of "if we only had small business, all the predatory stuff wouldn't happen" really fails to understand the dynamics of markets. Scale in agricultural production is what allows the low prices you get in stores - But $10 cage-free organic eggs are available at my local coop for those who love small businesses (though I prefer the $2 cage free eggs at nearby Grocery Outlet).

uejfiweun 52 minutes ago|||
We were stuck in the Gilded Age for decades before Roosevelt came along and started big trust-busting efforts. I expect a similar situation to play out here. We're probably in the middle of it in retrospect.
skeeter2020 47 minutes ago||
Maybe - or is this closer to the naked theft we saw out of the collapse of the Soviet Union? That's still playing out...
newsclues 1 hour ago|||
Do decentralized banking is better for business competition and market health.

But we live in a too big to fail, regulatory capture environment.

plagiarist 2 hours ago||
An assumption required to make capitalism work efficiently is that customers have meaningful choices. Trustbusting is one of the important roles of the government, if it were functional.
jklinger410 2 hours ago||
It's so fun how corporations are protected from individual liability but also their money is treated a speech.
gruez 1 hour ago|
>It's so fun how corporations are protected from individual liability

They're not. If you hire a hitman through a corporation it doesn't magically become legal.

lelandfe 39 minutes ago|||
It does permit something individuals don’t have: the internal investigation.

The internal investigation has determined that our CEO had no knowledge of this, and that the bloody pig mask was all the idea of the people who make less money, and also we fired the CEO for unrelated reasons.

gruez 33 minutes ago||
>The internal investigation has determined that our CEO had no knowledge of this, and that the bloody pig mask was all the idea of the people who make less money, and also we fired the CEO for unrelated reasons.

That's exactly how the criminal justice system should work? If you can't prove a particular person is responsible, you don't have a case. That's exactly why they prosecuted the company as a whole instead, because easier to prove the company as a whole did something, rather than a specific person.

lelandfe 18 minutes ago|||
One hopes while the company is behind bars it has time to reflect on its bad decisions.
jackb4040 29 minutes ago|||
No one can prove the CEO did anything, but whatever it was it was worth 500x as much as the average employee.
khriss 1 hour ago||||
Yeah, but the trick seems to be to can kill thousands rather than one. Then you have the full might of the law out to protect you. Exhibit A is the Sacklers family.
gruez 1 hour ago||
Again, no. If some drug company killed a single person with a weird side effect that they buried, do you think it'll be discovered, much less prosecuted? The Sacklers got prosecuted because the opiod epidemic was huge, not because they passed some magical threshold so it's magically fine.
b3ing 1 hour ago||
But you can deny life saving treatments if you are a health insurance company
gruez 42 minutes ago||
That's their job? It's not even limited to private insurance companies. Public health systems have lists of what is considered good value for money too, even if the treatments themselves are theoretically life saving. The US is the biggest market for new and rare drugs specifically because other countries consider the prices too high.
slg 37 minutes ago||
>That's their job?

I mean you're the one who brought up hitmen. What's their job?

gruez 35 minutes ago||
If you think that denying a specific treatment (justified or otherwise) is comparable murder for hire, then I don't think there's anything worth discussing between the two of us.
slg 26 minutes ago||
Yeah, in my opinion an unjustified and profit motivated refusal to save a life is the same as intentionally taking that life. It's just the trolley problem and you're arguing that there is some innate nobility in refusing to touch the switch.
margalabargala 47 minutes ago||||
They are protected from individual liability in a limited fashion. Not blanket
ginko 58 minutes ago|||
The person doing the hiring would be criminally liable and probably go to prison. The corporation itself would at best pay a fine.
declan_roberts 2 hours ago||
We really need to bring back corporal punishment, both for petty crimes and white collar crimes. The prison sentences don't make sense for the petty crimes, and the fines don't make sense for the white collar crimes.

We need to legalize public caning and the stocks.

tancop 2 hours ago||
we dont need new punishments, the system is just backwards. for things like shoplifting and vandalism it should be double or triple damages with no prison. corporate fraud, cartels, pollution, big time tax evasion has to come with 20+ year sentences and fines based on your income like a traffic violation in norway. flat fines just dont work when the criminal is rich.

in general we should be a lot more strict on sexual crimes (sa, trafficking, child abuse but not voluntary prostitution) and white collar/economic ones including wage theft, but less strict on drugs and property. drug possession and non commercial digital piracy should be decriminalized.

violent crimes are mostly in the right place, the big problem there is racist prosecutors and ineffective anti gang programs not the laws themselves but we need to remove death penalty/life without parole everywhere they still exist.

the point is we need a rebalance not a whole new untested mechanic.

gruez 1 hour ago|||
>for things like shoplifting and vandalism it should be double or triple damages with no prison

What do you think the chances of being caught shoplifting is? If it's less than 50-33%, then you have the same problem as the OP where it makes sense to shoplift.

scottlamb 53 minutes ago|||
> What do you think the chances of being caught shoplifting is? If it's less than 50-33%, then you have the same problem as the OP where it makes sense to shoplift.

Don't we already? Police and DAs at least here in California are not serious about punishing shoplifters AFAICT. I hear people say this is specifically because of the 2014 Proposition 47 (raising the threshold for felony theft from $400 to $950). Not sure that's true (misdemeanor theft can still be punished by up to six months of jail time and/or up to a $1,000 fine, and California's current thresholds are similar to other states) but there was a federal mandate to address prison overcrowding, and California chose to do that by not having as many prisoners instead of building a ton more prisons. Prop 47, and perhaps some policy changes made with far less fanfare, were intended to achieve that.

There's still more deterrent for misdemeanor shoplifting than for nationwide egg price-fixing though!

gruez 31 minutes ago||
>Don't we already?

So clearly we should... make it even more lenient? That's what OP was implying.

gopher_space 53 minutes ago|||
The general public isn’t that relentlessly amoral.
ksbd-pls-finish 1 hour ago||||
>in general we should be a lot more strict on sexual crimes (sa, trafficking, child abuse but not voluntary prostitution) and white collar/economic ones including wage theft, but less strict on drugs and property. drug possession and non commercial digital piracy should be decriminalized.

Why? I mean, do you have a specific scientific research in mind, or is it something you feel is right?

I mean, it makes sense to me, mostly, but "we should" presented without any evidence irks me a bit.

atmavatar 13 minutes ago||
To start with, the war on drugs was initiated by Nixon as a way to target political enemies (hippies and non-whites).
mikestew 7 minutes ago||
[citation needed], and not the citation from an interview twenty years ago with a guy long dead, who quoted Erlichman in an unfinished book.
DaedalusII 1 hour ago|||
how are prosecutors racist - they only get to prosecute people arrested for committing crimes. they dont get to pick!
benregenspan 1 hour ago|||
There is a whole area of research on this. Prosecutors have significant discretion around charging and (suggested) sentence, and this allows bias to creep in. I've heard people debate the quality of specific research on the size of the bias, but not the mere idea that bias is possible at all.
mcmcmc 1 hour ago||||
1) they can be selective with which arrests result in charges

2) prosecutors can tell police straight up what they will or won’t prosecute, which affects what crimes cops will investigate or make an arrest for

wetmore 1 hour ago||||
They get to pick the sentencing they are aiming for, and that can depend on race.
LadyCailin 1 hour ago||||
They absolutely get to pick. They pick which cases they choose to prosecute, plea bargain, or dismiss, as well as what sentence they choose to ask for.
kevin_thibedeau 1 hour ago||||
They have discretion to not prosecute. I was nearly killed and left with significant injuries. The police conspired to undercharge and the prosecutor DGAF.
toomuchtodo 1 hour ago|||
American Bar: Prosecutors confront ugly repercussions of bias - https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/aba-news-archives/2... - February 3rd, 2023

> The pervasive problems with racism in our criminal justice system has been clear. Black Americans are incarcerated in state prisons at nearly five times the rate of white Americans.

> The systemic racism in the system starts before the first contact and continues through charging decisions, plea deals, conviction, sentencing recommendations, incarceration, release and beyond.

cholmdomsky 11 minutes ago||
How do you respond when others use that information to instead assert "well of course they're incarcerated at a higher rate; they commit more, and worse crimes than -we- do!"
john_strinlai 2 hours ago|||
>the fines don't make sense for the white collar crimes.

why do we need to jump to caning instead of increasing the fines to something more than an operating expense?

in this case, if the fine was 1000x the profits instead of the other way around, the problem would be solved, right?

vondur 8 minutes ago|||
In theory there will be some class action lawsuits that will come about from this now that this report is public. Those can get very expensive.
weaksauce 48 minutes ago||||
In any other crime you get caught doing you do not get the benefits of the ill gotten gains. why should this be any different?
john_strinlai 44 minutes ago||
i am saying the fine should exceed the ill gotten gains. so, they would not get the benefits
bs7280 1 hour ago||||
Executives will be more afraid of being sent to prison for criminal charges, than having someone else's money get spent on fines. We can do both - increase the fines and set a precedent of arresting executives when their company does criminal things.
atmavatar 6 minutes ago|||
In a large enough organization with many layers to it, it very well may be that executives were neither involved nor aware of criminal wrongdoing, and even when they are, you'll never find sufficient evidence to charge them. That's largely the point behind performing criminal acts as a business and why there's so much white-collar crime.

At least if you set fines to a level that such crimes are rarely if ever profitable, you can both remove the incentive for the organization to commit them as well as introduce a passive internal mechanism to prevent them in the first place.

john_strinlai 1 hour ago|||
sure, prison time for some criminal stuff is cool too.

i am more pushing back against the call for corporal punishment like caning

jachee 1 hour ago|||
What if I told you that prison is also corporal punishment?
john_strinlai 1 hour ago||
i tried to be more specific with the “like caning” part
jackb4040 26 minutes ago|||
I have no moral objection, but it would just change the composition of CEOs as a group. Instead of just selecting for sociopaths, we'd start selecting for sociopaths with high pain tolerance.
Supermancho 21 minutes ago|||
> the problem would be solved, right?

Corporal punishment is laughable outright, but that's masking the issue. Punishing corporations does not discourage the participants directly. The behavior will not change.

forshaper 1 hour ago|||
And rotten tomato pelting would probably helpfully lower the rate of people turning their resentments into content.
the__alchemist 1 hour ago|||
Alternatively: (As stated in the other replies) jail execs.
geodel 59 minutes ago|||
I'll start this punishment from elementary schools onwards. Early punishment will prevent later crimes.
Henchman21 2 hours ago|||
Along with this we need the revocation of corporate charters and the liquidation of all assets belonging to the owners of any corp that is dissolved in this manner. The penalty for fucking over the public in general should be a lifetime of poverty.
lesuorac 49 minutes ago|||
I didn't check, but I don't think the corporate charter for this companies allows for fraud.

Not sure what the penalty for doing things you weren't incorporated for but seems reasonable for me that the liability doesn't rest with the corporation.

devilbunny 2 hours ago|||
The owners of corporations are mostly pension funds and the like.
mlsu 2 hours ago|||
Arguably that is worse. If a criminal misuses his own resources to commit crimes and then you take that away from them, it only affects him.

The companies should be liquidated still. That would put the incentives in the correct order.

zie 1 hour ago||||
Sort of True-ish. There are lots of different kinds of ownership. Ownership with little to no say in how things are run to ownership with basically all the control.

If you are an owner with all the control, i.e. you are on the board or in corporate leadership(CEO/CFO/etc), then hey guess what,there is a really great cell here at the local prison just waiting for you, depending on how involved you were.

If you are an owner with little to no control, i.e. most shareholders that just vote for the board, etc. The assets would get liquidated, bond/debt holders would get paid back, and then anything left over would go to these shareholders.

This would incentivize shareholders to care more about what they are owning, this is a good thing. Even if it's pension funds and individual retirement accounts. This would get sorted pretty quickly as soon as the new normal is known and adjusted for.

SpaceX for example just went public, but if you read the docs, the control was not given to the public. Elon Musk 100% controls SpaceX still. Even if every public shareholder unanimously agrees against Elon Musk, guess what happens? Elon Musk still gets his way.

I don't know what the parent comment was thinking, but to my mind, the ones with the most control get the worst of the consequences. So Pension Funds/etc that hold little to no control would get paid out before those with more control.

jackb4040 21 minutes ago|||
This whole thread is a fascinating exercise. I'm watching HN derive Lenin's "What is to be Done?" from first principles.
Henchman21 56 minutes ago|||
I think to state it succinctly, the thing I was thinking was: "the people that make the bad decisions should bear the consequences".
zie 35 minutes ago||
That generally turns out to be the same thing as me, just said more succinctly. I agree with your thinking.
unethical_ban 1 hour ago|||
Yet another issue with the modern US iteration of capitalism. The intentional design of the US stock market for people to depend on it for retirement, instead of getting enough wages to save their money risk-free or with government benefits.

Pushing 401k and IRA, making it so that's the only viable way (other than having a high-6-digit wage) to live comfortably in retirement, is a detriment to a healthy society.

lesuorac 50 minutes ago||
What version of capitalism wouldn't have the problem of risky investments paying out more than safe ones?

The people with better ROI are just going to outbid the ones with a worse ROI for their retirement spending so if you just invest it into T-Bills you'll do worse than inflation.

unethical_ban 13 minutes ago||
I'd say a better version is one where the average citizen does not have to *rely* on a boom-bust, unregulated financial system to secure their ability to survive in retirement. Through tax, fiscal and monetary policy it would be better if people could rely on government services and normal wages to get through their elder years.
skeeter2020 46 minutes ago||
except that was never used against the powerful and wealthy, just the same poor who pay the price today.
xbar 12 minutes ago||
Why is capital punishment for society-level-harming white collar crime never considered in Western countries?
Varelion 2 hours ago||
The United Monopolies of America
pphysch 2 hours ago|
The Associated Monopolies of America.
khriss 1 hour ago||
We really need an FTC with teeth. Capitalism cannot easily survive monopolies as the first thing monopolies do it fight tooth and nail to shut out competitors.

Sadly, we seem to be going in the opposite direction. First with the appointment of industry aligned FTC chairs (with the notable exception of Lina Khan) and now with the supreme court judgement that the president can fire heads of agencies at will. It makes it much easier for moneyed interests to buy the outcomes they want as there are no real job protections for the FTC commissioners.

xgulfie 2 hours ago||
Same thing keeps happening with DRAM, bread, electricity...
toomuchtodo 5 hours ago|
Related:

Egg Libor Was Also Manipulated - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48756256 - July 2026

Justice Department Requires Egg Producers to End Coordinated Benchmark Manipulation that Artificially Inflated Prices Across the Country - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48734081 - July 2026

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