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Posted by Kaapeine 4 hours ago

24-bit/192kHz music downloads and why they make no sense (2012)(people.xiph.org)
60 points | 87 commentspage 3
viccis 4 hours ago|
If you try to use empiricism when it comes to certain groups audiophiles, you are going to be sorely reminded that it's basically the equivalent of healing crystals for a different type of person. 24/192 is useful for mixing/mastering, but completely unnecessary for the end product to distribute for listening.
evo 4 hours ago||
24/192 is also great for digital synthesizers--if you're generating a waveform like a sawtooth that has theoretically instantaneous transitions, they can eat as much frequency as you can give them. Running at 44khz loses noticeable high-end content.

Most modern digital synths have already caught onto this and run internally at much higher sampling rates even if their output gets downsampled, but sometimes you run across a vintage plugin that runs at the host audio rate and working in a higher sampling rate is audible.

Blackthorn 4 hours ago|||
You can generate perfect band-limited sawtooth waves at 44.1khz, there are multiple techniques for doing this and most production digital synthesizers use them.

Oversampling gives you headroom for aliases for the rest of the synth that is more vulnerable to it.

evo 4 hours ago||
Yeah, I was oversimplifying a blit, the raw waveforms are usually okay, but I distinctly remember old-school VSTs where you couldn't achieve a nice saw lead at 44.1.
Blackthorn 4 hours ago||
It's tough to tell without specific names, but I imagine a lot of particularly old* VSTs were written to use naive sawtooths rather than perfect band-limited ones, which would have terrible aliasing at 44.1 khz. Oversampling those would help a lot!

* Some people are still making this mistake, despite information on the (many) ways to do it the right way being widely and freely available!

evo 3 hours ago||
I wonder if there's also distortion or ring modulation stages where some of the energy above hearing range might spill into audible sidebands if they're not nyquist-limited first.
Blackthorn 3 hours ago||
Yeah, that's the "rest of the synth" part that's more vulnerable to aliasing.

There's some ways to do band-limited distortion but...they aren't nearly as widespread, easy, or universal as band-limited oscillators.

Ring modulation is funny though because you'd ideally want the sidebands to modulate down by default rather than filter them out, that's why you're using it.

dist-epoch 4 hours ago|||
No synth generates sawtooths by literally drawing a saw tooth in PCM. The distorsion you get if you do that is not subtle at all.
colmmacc 4 hours ago|||
32-bits are great for recording too because they do an incredible job of capturing the dynamic range without having to be precise on the preamp settings. It removes an entire job from the recording workflow.

192 for mixing and mastering can be useful especially if you're doing a lot of effects, especially anything that pitch shifts. But I've seen low quality phone-microphone recordings make it to the master; if you capture lightning in a bottle, it hardly matters what the settings were, what the microphone was, or anything else.

Aldipower 4 hours ago|||
Even with mixing/mastering 96khz is enough for persisting to files. But as another commenter said, 192 is useful, if you bend and stretch samples!
tshaddox 3 hours ago||
They literally sell actual crystals that you’re supposed to place on top of speakers and amplifiers to make them sound better.
Blackthorn 3 hours ago||
We had a really nice crystal decoration that I happened to put on top of one of my TV speakers and, wouldn't you know it, it had this resonant frequency somewhere around specific human speech frequencies that drove us absolutely bonkers until I figured out the cause and moved it.
teach 4 hours ago||
(2012)
lokar 4 hours ago||
I wonder how many people think that 24 bit audio encodes 50% “more”
recursive 4 hours ago|
It is 50% more headroom above the noise floor in logarithmic decibels.
Arodex 3 hours ago||
I completely accept that human audition has limits that are easy to determine by playing a pure sound. But is it the same with music, where multiple frequencies are played and interfere with each other? Aren't some harmonics or effects created by these "inaudible" frequencies?

To try to imagine something similar: the human eye is unable to see UV light, yet fluorescent paint has a visible quality of its own compared to "normal" pigments.

ChrisArchitect 3 hours ago||
(2012)

Some previous discussions:

2023 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34698427

2022 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30138561

2019 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19318898

2017 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15127633

2015 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10520639

2014 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8689231

2012 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3668310

0l 4 hours ago||
Obligatory mention of https://xiph.org/video/ which clears up a lot of misconceptions.
trashcluster 4 hours ago||
24 bits is now ubiquitous and 32 bit is becoming the norm in recording studios.
evo 4 hours ago||
32-bit float has become popular in filmmaking/field recording equipment lately because, with a microphone preamp that supports it, you can capture the entire dynamic range of the microphone--there's no accidental clipping if you drive the gain stage too hard.

It's a bit redundant for a skilled technician, they're already used to setting the gain staging, inbound compression, and feathering the mics to avoid this in 24-bit, but if you're handing a boom mic to a novice and have a scene where e.g. someone's whispering and another person's screaming, it can be nice to not have to worry about it.

lysace 4 hours ago||
That use case is literally addressed in the first sentence.
metalman 4 hours ago||
sheeesh , measly 24-bit/192kHz of course it makes no sense, unless it is downloaded through low oxyegen wire, which somehow and unfathomably, must have been omited or forgotten.
b3orn 4 hours ago|
If it has been transmitted via hollow-core fibres it will obviously sound hollow.
waffletower 3 hours ago||
For typical listening (though humans can perceive bone-conducted vibrations up to 100 kHz or even 120 kHz) 16-bit-fixed/44.1kHz is a high-fidelity transport format. As a DSP researcher, I prefer 32-bit-float/44.1kHz as a transport format. I often upsample to 32-bit-float/188.2kHz or even 32-bit-float/192kHz for signal processing applications such as high-fidelity reverberation via direct and FFT convolution. While the author advocates for the transport to ear use case, I would argue that 24-bit/192kHz provides greater fidelity and resolution for sound processing. I found the pedantic arrogance of the author to be annoying. But yes, the sampling theory is an important consideration -- but so is the quality of the actual digital filters used in the DAC->ADC pipeline. They are much more forgiving and less lossy at 192kHz.
Aldipower 4 hours ago|
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