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Posted by jnord 9 hours ago

Astrophysicists Puzzle over Webb’s New Universe(www.quantamagazine.org)
153 points | 88 comments
nzeid 3 hours ago|
> Recent ideas suggest that little red dots could be black holes cocooned in thick gas, possibly representing a completely new type of object called a black hole star, in which the tight shroud of gas emits light like a stellar atmosphere.

Just be sure to name the members of Soundgarden on the paper.

baggachipz 1 hour ago|
Would you say this research is out of... Cornell?
sulam 42 minutes ago||
I thought I read somewhere that many of these little red dots are turning out to be nothing more than bog-standard brown dwarfs in our own galaxy that are confusing the signal. These days we have some pretty powerful agents who can read these things faster than I can, so I went and found the paper: https://arxiv.org/abs/2506.04004

It turns out that brown dwarfs are actually corrected for, so my remembrance is correct but factored in. I’m posting anyway because 1) it’s interesting and mildly relevant and 2) others might have the same “vague but unclear” recollection I had and appreciate the elaboration.

hparadiz 1 hour ago||
Little red dots are my favorite new concept in astrophysics. This idea that there could be so much matter orbiting a black hole that the matter reaches sun levels of pressure which in turn starts steller fission without there being an star. Mind-blowing
hyperman1 4 hours ago||
There was a time where Hawking's A brief history of time gave a decent overview of the universe to beginners. Does anyone know how well it holds up today and if anything better exists?
funkaster 1 hour ago||
It doesn't answer your question, but I would love to read an updated version of Asimov's guide to science: https://archive.org/details/asimovsguidetosc00unse/mode/2up
gcanyon 2 hours ago|||
I'll give a shoutout to Feynman's QED. It's approachable for anyone with high school understanding, and gives a reasonable insight into all sorts of phenomena.
jordanpg 39 minutes ago|||
Have not read it yet, but recently researched this question and came to this book as a readable overview of the latest thinking in cosmology, Battle of the Big Bang: The New Tales of Our Cosmic Origins by Afshordi and Halper [1].

The book assumes a basic knowledge of physics and cosmology so it does not spend half the book reviewing basics like many pop physics books do.

[1] https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/B/bo244963...

ramraj07 3 hours ago||
There was never a time when a book gave the public an overview of the universe. ABHOT was so popular for being a book no one actually read, theres even an index named after Hawking due to it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawking_Index

Did _you_ read that book?

There however definitely was a piece of media that captured public minds and educated them about the cosmos. And that was the show Cosmos. The original of course. Not the NDT drivel.

freehorse 2 hours ago|||
I am pretty certain this "hawking index" meme must be a new-ish thing. I read the book as teenager and know also others who did. It is a fairly easily readable book imo, so I don't think this characterisation is warranted by the qualities of the book itself.

I suspect that a popsci book becoming a bestseller creates a larger-than-the-usual-nerds audience, a big part of which lacks the motivation to actually finish it. I expect that in places like this you will find higher frequency of people who have actually read it.

Moreover, when i read the book i did not have easy access to pop-sci sources as a (practically pre-internet) teenager in a small town of a small country, like i would have had today. I got upon a booklet of a small publishing house with the titles of translated pop-sci books and would order them from a local bookstore. Maybe if I was already familiar enough with the topic through youtube videos etc I would not have finished either.

NitpickLawyer 1 hour ago||
> this "hawking index" meme must be a new-ish thing

TBF the methodology and hypotheses that it's based on aren't that bad. I'm sure Amazon has better data, but for a "publicly accessible" data (at that time) I can see it. The problem is that while lots of people might abandon the book, that doesn't mean that still loads of people don't read it fully. They are, after all, extremely popular books. Obviously some people will have received / impulse bought / FOMO / new year resolution / etc the books, but from the sales numbers that's still a lot of people that did enjoy them. Marketing aside, the book is pretty approachable, like were Sagan's books and so on.

hyperman1 3 hours ago||||
I did read the book, and know enough people who did. Now I may have weird interests, but that describes basically half the inhabitants of this site.

BTW, as non-USAian, I never saw Cosmos and never heard of NDT.

hgoel 1 hour ago||||
As an early teen I begged my parents for both A Brief History of Time and The Grand Design. Read both several times. ~15 years later, my parents are still holding on to them and my Dad has read them a couple of times too. It was great reading and played a significant role in my choice of research as a career.

Never heard of the "people don't actually read it" meme.

ordu 2 hours ago||||
From that list I've read three books: "A Brief History of Time", "Thinking, Fast and Slow", and "Capital in XXI Century". First two I've read from start to end. The last I didn't read to the end, I think I've read ~50% of it. My numbers correlate with that list, the least "readable" book in the list is the book I didn't read through.

However I still doubt the methodology. It is not obvious for me that if a book was read in full, then highlights from it would be distributed uniformly all over the book.

on_the_train 3 hours ago||||
Interesting. I've been gifted that book at just the right time in my life as a teenager. It captured me. I read it the to end many times. Not understanding everything or course. But it created a spark which laid the groundwork for my entire career.

I've never seen cosmos.

coliveira 3 hours ago||||
I did read it and I'm sure a whole generation of people also did, it is a very clear and readable book. Don't underestimate or minimize the impact of Hawking's book when it was released.
IncreasePosts 32 minutes ago||||
I knew dozens of people in my high school who actually read it.

Maybe godel, escher, bach would be a better "book that people talked about but never read"

The_Blade 2 hours ago|||
i will never forget learning about Eratosthenes when i was very young and should have been playing Excitebike or something
wanda 5 hours ago||
You won't make it to the next iteration without wrapping yourself in a black hole and appearing as an anomaly to future observers.
delichon 4 hours ago|
How do we know whether we're already in one?
wanda 4 hours ago||
A downside to the tech. You never really know if you made it because you enter another universe within.

You make it to the next cycle, but within a new universe rather than the one you aimed for. Your black hole displaces spacetime within the universe whose cycle renewed, but you are no longer an active component of that universe.

Of course, if you didn't deliberately do this, I guess you're a spectator to someone else in their black hole. So, congrats, I guess, but also you need to advance your science a bit faster if you don't want to count on luck next time.

ck2 5 hours ago||
Nancy Grace Roman Telescope is also going to be amazing for raising new questions

and I hope the attempt to lift the Swift telescope to a higher orbit is successful

if you really want to stay on top of what is breaking astrophysics in realtime, I highly recommend following DrBecky on youtube or elsewhere, she is fantastic

* https://www.youtube.com/@DrBecky/videos

analog31 3 hours ago||
So I wonder, where are these giant black holes now? There should be some closer to us than at the edge of the universe, unless something happens to them.
tgarrett 2 hours ago|
The supermassive black hole in the giant elliptical galaxy M87 is merely ~53 million light years away, close enough that we have now imaged it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messier_87#Supermassive_black_...

blacksmith_tb 2 hours ago||
Sagittarius A* is "merely" 26 thousand light years away (but we probably won't be imaging it, since there's a lot more in the way)
windsurfer 2 hours ago|||
The M87 supermassive blackhole is thousands of times as massive as Sagittarius A*, but since Sagittarius A* is a lot closer their emission rings appear roughly the same size in the sky (42 μas vs 51 μas). Both have already been imaged by the Event Horizon Telescope. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event_Horizon_Telescope
erulastiel 1 hour ago|||
We’ve already imaged it with the event horizon telescope. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagittarius_A*?wprov=sfti1#
gbjcantab 7 hours ago||
This is one of my favorite phenomena: again in again, across various fields of study, breakthroughs in discovery allow us to go from relative ignorance to a level of knowledge and understanding that enables clear and clean conceptual models; then, as we learn even more, we realize how much more complex and weird and multifaceted reality really is.

It’s like a Dunning-Kruger effect on a field-wide scale, but in a good way. Rather than an example of hubris, it’s an opportunity for awe.

paytonjjones 4 hours ago||
I think this can be explained by the dictum "big effects get discovered first"

It does present a weird science communication problem. After the first generation, scientists are all focused on "little effects" and don't get excited about talking about the big effects any more. They like talking about what they're working on (little effects). Textbooks drift from fundamentals and new entrants and outsiders get a distorted view of reality.

qsera 7 hours ago||
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sdoering 6 hours ago||
WTF. We have such great medical advancement in cancer treatments, vaccines, reconstructive surgery h just to name a few.

Not sure what you are referring to, but the only unjustifiable things in the (so called) medical field are snake oil sales men trying to make a quick buck by instilling a fear of science into people's minds. Like anti-vax idiots. Or homeopathic bullshit.

juanani 6 hours ago|||
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qsera 4 hours ago|||
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api 5 hours ago||
The most exciting idea to me that JWST has bolstered is primordial black holes. Many models already predict them but JWST has provided the first good indirect evidence in the form of too-early galaxies. The models that predict PBHs predict that.

If they exist, they would not be constrained to stellar mass and above. There could be a population of little black holes floating around. Anything under the mass of a decent size asteroid would have evaporated by now but anything that mass and above would still exist.

They are a dark matter candidate, and one that doesn’t require new physics. But even if they don’t account for a significant amount of dark matter they still probably exist.

The most exciting thing about PBHs is that one or more may exist in our solar system. They might have been captured over billions of years. Finding them would be incredibly challenging, especially if they are low mass, but if we did it means we could directly examine and experiment on a black hole.

It could be something with the mass of a large asteroid but the size of a hydrogen atom. We could only find it by its gravitational effects. It would be utterly invisible otherwise unless it encountered matter and even then there might only be a tiny gamma ray flash, a nano accretion disc that lasts femtoseconds. We might also find smaller objects that appear to be orbiting nothing and find it that way.

Directly accessing one could allow us to test theories of quantum gravity and things like string theory, and maybe more. A black hole could be like a Rosetta Stone of deep fundamental physics.

The film Interstellar involved using plot magic to visit a black hole and solve physics, but this would allow it for real. It would just be an itty bitty one.

pmontra 4 hours ago||
Of course if we had a black hole in a lab (or one in a convenient orbit) we could run all sort of experiments, but which experiments exactly? We will start by throwing things at it and watch, obviously, but that's unimaginative. What are the smart experiments?
JumpCrisscross 4 hours ago|||
> which experiments exactly?

Put a bunch of charge into it to generate a naked singularity. Then look at it.

More usefully: perfect the Penrose process.

api 3 hours ago||||
There's a few obvious things. What you've got is an almost "vertical" gravity well near the object. A smaller black hole would actually have a steeper gravity well than a large one.

(1) See how gravity behaves at those strengths and scales by firing lasers and particle beams past it, grazing the event horizon, and use that information to test quantum gravity hypotheses and things like string theory. Classical gravity predicts certain results. Quantum and non-classical theories would make different predictions. For example, you might see direct evidence of gravitational quantization very close to the horizon.

(2) Chuck stuff into it: heavy ions, small masses with a coilgun. Measure the results: spectrum, particles emitted, etc.

(3) Chuck stuff into it in a very precise way and use its extreme near-horizon gravitational well as a particle accelerator to achieve collision energies potentially millions of times greater than the LHC. You would not be able to directly observe these collisions, but you could potentially observe stuff kicked out. Orbit it with an array of sensors and magnetic traps.

Bonus: use its gravity well to yeet small probes at interstellar velocities (a few percent 'c' or higher) for flyby missions to photograph exoplanets? I believe you could use the Oberth effect here and do something like fly very close and fire a single Orion-style nuclear pulse at a sacrificial pusher plate. The impulse would accelerate the payload to insane velocities.

No human passengers though, since the acceleration would probably do this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waG8YYTwpAQ

typeofhuman 4 hours ago|||
I'm not sure anything after the event horizon right? Since no light == no information.
cholmdomsky 1 hour ago||
Can magnetic fields escape, if their lines intersect the event horizon of a black hole?
tomaskafka 4 hours ago|||
We could probably redirect budget for next gen particle accelerator to building an experimental platform orbiting the black hole, and get better results, right?
JumpCrisscross 4 hours ago||
I’m still convinced a muon collider is the best bang for the buck for a next-generation collider. It requires new engineering and could probe new physics.
prairiedogg 4 hours ago|||
What could go wrong?
api 4 hours ago||
Not much.

A black hole isn't a magic cosmic vacuum cleaner. It's a dense piece of mass. An asteroid mass black hole the size of a hydrogen atom would be... an object the size of a hydrogen atom with the mass of an asteroid. You could orbit it and the orbital calculations, at a reasonable distance, would be the same as orbiting an asteroid. You just can't get too close or you get into that steep gravity well and "become physics" (spaghettification etc.).

It would have an insanely steep gravity well, but you'd have to get close to actually feel it. It would rarely interact with mass naturally. We could chuck stuff into it or fire lasers and particle beams at it to study it, of course, but to hit it we'd have to fire it at the right angle and velocity to negate the orbit and fall into it. Orbital mechanics still works the same way.

If a black hole this size flew through the Earth at high velocity, it might not even do anything. It'd be like a bullet being fired through a puff of smoke. It might leave some kind of trail if you knew exactly what to look for and where to look, something almost analogous to the trails left by particles in a chamber.

I've given this example multiple times because it illustrates the point well, I think.

If you could magically transform the Moon into a black hole of the same mass, you would now have an object of that mass about the size of a BB or a small marble orbiting the Earth right where the Moon's center of mass orbited. The tides would continue as normal, since its gravitational effects on the Earth would be the same at that distance. Probes and other objects orbiting the Moon would continue to orbit it.

You just wouldn't be able to see it anymore. If you focused a very good telescope on its location, though, you could probably see gravitational lensing of the star field behind it.

The only risk might be if a large object actually hit it, in which case the accretion disc might temporarily emit enough X-rays and gamma rays to be harmful to Earth. Not sure though. It might not be that harmful at that distance.

macintux 2 hours ago||
As is often the case (and I suspect you're already familiar with it) Randall Munroe tackled the moon->black hole question:

https://what-if.xkcd.com/129/

consensus1 2 hours ago|||
How certain is the evaporation? Obviously Hawking radiation has never been observed, but is it tied in enough to other known physics that we can be reasonably certain it exists?
scotty79 4 hours ago|||
My pet theory is that supermassive black holes are older than the universe and they didn't grew much.
MichaelZuo 4 hours ago||
Does PBH theory also predict >1 billion solar mass black holes so early?
api 3 hours ago||
I believe it does, due to PBHs forming seeds for early accretion, but ask a non-armchair physicist (or a good LLM).
jdw64 8 hours ago|
As observations become too numerous, it seems like it can be summarized as there now being too many possible candidate explanations. As data increases and becomes clearer, more and more things don't fit the existing theories.

What are the current theories explaining the early universe? What happened to the Big Bang? I only studied astronomy up to an undergraduate level, so I don't really know.

I imagine that various non-uniform gases were scattered around, and due to spatial distortions, those uniform gas regions clumped together, forming stars and other structures. Perhaps the expansion of space wasn't uniform either—it expanded unevenly, sometimes bulging, and when space expands or contracts, energy is generated, causing spacetime changes to shake the field, and that shaking might have created matter. Maybe the dynamic interaction between changing spacetime and fields revealed the energy stored in the field in the form of particles.

What do scientists think about this in modern cosmology? My knowledge is far too limited and I lack intuition, but reading science-related articles always excites me. Maybe it's because I still have some childlike curiosity left in me

Tazerenix 4 hours ago||
The evidence for the big bang is generally not that if you look far enough back in a telescope, the universe looks younger, which is somewhat the layperson's confusion.

Evidence for the big bang is about measuring redshift of galaxies throughout universal history, homgeneity and thermal equilibrium of the universe and CMBR, which could only be explained by it all having been in a compressed location where it could reach thermal equilibrium at some point in the distant past.

None of that is challenged by the Webb observations about very young supermassive black holes.

In fact, the existence of supermassive black holes themselves has basically always been an unsolved problem even before Webb. The only known possible explanation (stellar collapse -> accretion -> supermassive black hole) could be ruled out even before Webb on theoretical and experimental grounds, we just have stronger evidence against it now. (To wit: if supermassive black holes form from stellar black holes by growing, you would expect to see lots of intermediate mass black holes. We see almost none. Furthermore, the process of accretion is extremely energetic, so IMBHs would be the most visible objects in the night sky. The fact we see none is doubly damning)

The mainstream position now will be big bang + some kind of primordial black hole formation during the very early stages of the universe. Work of Hawking/Penrose shows that black holes can form under generic conditions in solutions to the EFE equations. We have a general understanding of how they could come about from certain dense matter layouts in a standard GR cosmological model.

somenameforme 42 minutes ago||
I think you're leaving out a major issue there. Homogeneity was not in favor of the big bang. It's actually a major problem - the horizon problem. [1] Parts of the universe (think opposite sides) are not causally connected. Even traveling at the speed of light, there would not be enough time for a particle in one side to reach the other since the birth of the universe. Yet the temperature within these regions is homogeneous - at a thermal equilibrium. That doesn't make any sense.

This led to the development of cosmic inflation [2], which is what largely drove me from a doe eyed young astronomy enthusiast to a highly skeptical old fart. It solves the problem in an ad hoc fashion. Just have the universal expansion go into overdrive for a bit shortly after the big bang, then slow down, then start accelerating again - and then at the end we finally get something that looks like what we see - a homogeneous system in this case.

It made some highly accurate and improbable predictions which led to widespread adoption but then ran into numerous issues requiring further ad-hoc solutions. And this process has been repeated multiple times since its original formulation, to the point that there's a library of different inflation theories now a days, all getting ever more fine-tuned. If non-casually connected regions of space acted like they were non-casually connected then all would be fine, but the homogeneity that we do have is a big problem for the big bang.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizon_problem

[2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_inflation

mr_toad 4 hours ago|||
> spatial distortions

Acoustic distortions. The universe was small and dense enough for sound to travel through ‘space’, which was filled with plasma. The theory is that inflation blew up these tiny distortions to the scale of the structure we see in the universe.

jvs76 7 hours ago|||
I dont think about it because my days are occupied by very specific problems. Theory of Bounded Rationality and its implications apply.
jdw64 7 hours ago||
Right. When you don't have any breathing room, it's hard to think about anything else. That's why I take about two hours a day to just watch the news and clear my head. I'd probably forget all about it too if I were working 70-hour weeks on a contracted project, haha. Hang in there. Have a good day
ben_w 6 hours ago|||
With the caveat I'm summarising from what PBS Space Time and Dr Becky* say:

• Big Bang: we can only see back to surface of last scattering, i.e. the CMB, extrapolating backwards goes "???" at much the same point as it did a few decades back because we still have not unified quantum mechanics and general relativity

• CMB should only have isotope distribution of Big Bang nucleosynthesis, that hasn't changed in the last decades, dunno if that's what you meant by "various non-uniform gases were scattered around"?

• Variations in density of CMB do exist, key phrase is "Baryon acoustic oscillations", while they're very small magnitude they're also massive in distance scale, so they're how galactic clusters formed (that scale rather than stars directly): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baryon_acoustic_oscillations

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPpUxoeooZk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRUTnoveZs8

• Re: "Perhaps the expansion of space wasn't uniform either": I heard about specifically "Timescape Cosmology", but a quick search says that's part of a broader category of inhomogeneous cosmologies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inhomogeneous_cosmology#Timesc...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXg6YVcdOcA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlNVZz5D6WE

• Re: "and when space expands or contracts, energy is generated": no, general relativity does not in general conserve energy, and it is related to the curvature of spacetime. Simple example is that the photons in the CMB have much less energy to us than they did to the atoms they were emitted from**: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04ERSb06dOg

* I assuming I'm correctly judging the level and attention to detail they're providing, given the detail they put in and references to specific research publications. My degree is Software Engineering.

** There's also a Veritasium video about this, but to me Veritasium feels like a BBC 2 evening popular science show, so I'm not as confident about recommending it.

jdw64 6 hours ago||
thanks!!
tigerlily 6 hours ago||
I took a good long look at the CMB picture, including the caption. It basically says the Universe was one big hot apparently uniform ball at one stage.

I don't know what conditions were like before that stage, but like Eric Idle says, nothing can come from nothing.

Dark energy is a horse shit name for a theory that was horse shit to begin with. The Universe is probably just inhomogeneous, like your intuition is saying.

mr_mitm 5 hours ago|||
Why do you say "probably"? We can measure and quantify the inhomogeneities very precisely, and they're tiny. This isn't a matter of opinion or intuition.
tigerlily 6 hours ago||||
I will say that the current and future telescope lineup is amazing and is bound to reveal: even more fascinating insights and mysteries!
api 5 hours ago|||
“Dark” matter and energy are placeholder names. “Dark” means “we don’t know” which either means we can’t see or detect it or there is an alternate explanation for the effect.

It’s like a comment in your code like \\ TODO…

I don’t see why that’s that hard, or why we’d expect to instantly be able to figure everything out.

nobodyandproud 3 hours ago||
I think the problem is that it wasn’t just used merely as a placeholder, but to hard shutdown any discussions—often started by lay persons—about possibilities that didn’t involve brand new particle physics.

I still recall how neutrinos and black holes “couldn’t” be candidates.

To physicists, this means stellar neutrinos and blackholes (and galaxy centers). To lay persons, any category such as cold neutrinos or primordial black holes also qualify.

The sheer amount of vitriol and—I can’t think of a better term than this—“smugness” was off putting.

Before the internet, this was fine when locked away in their labs and classes; but I don’t think you understand the scale of damage neurodivergent scientists and its fans have done to the science community once they started to participate directly.

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