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Posted by speckx 7 hours ago

98% isn't much(whynothugo.nl)
377 points | 255 commentspage 3
Panzerschrek 6 hours ago|
There are cases when providing service for remaining 2% isn't profitable. It's better just say "sorry".

I used to work in company where we have spent a lot of time making custom fixes for our software in order to work-around wired hardware/software bugs on machines of individual customers. Yes, we provided service for remaining 2% or so, but in cost of slowing-down overall product development and not making our product better for remaining 98%.

xdertz 6 hours ago|
So how about also getting rid of all regulations for wheelchair friendly infrastructure while we are at it? Way too expensive and it is even less than 2% of the population that requires it.
Panzerschrek 6 hours ago|||
Public infrastructure is different. It should work for everyone. My argument is more about commercial products with profitability kept in mind.
groundzeros2015 5 hours ago||||
Great idea. We should reevaluate how effective these policies are. The ADA favored visible signs of disability accommodation for political reasons rather than the most essential services. Many historical sites are not available to the public due to this regulation.
shooly 6 hours ago|||
People in wheelchairs literally need them to live, they have no alternative.

People who don't update browsers for years (or even decades) do so willingly.

Archer6621 2 hours ago||
If that 30% of visitors with incompatible browsers has no overlap with the target audience you wish to reach, then what does it matter for your business?

Of course, you do not know this exactly, but the point is that it's easy to look at the wrong statistic and come to conclusions that are not necessarily useful in some context. The lens matters just as much as the percentage, if not more.

cedilla 3 hours ago||
98% isn't much, but it's also not little. It's just a number, and numbers don't have a meaning without an interpretation. That's a fundamental logical feature, but hardly a special insight.
BeetleB 3 hours ago||
> Can you imagine a venue refusing entry to former clients 2% of the time just because they’ve “improved their experience”?

The web has been doing this since, when, the 90's?

I use Firefox. In the last year, suddenly quite a few web sites have just stopped working on it for me. Firefox is over 2% market share.

k6hkUZtLUM 4 hours ago||
Serving a website is different than serving food or providing safety features. Web design can use progressive enhancement and detect available features to use as they are available.

With a website, you can have the "real" layout, but when someone is blocking your JS, you can fallback and still provide content.

We won't get every mobile application working on old browsers, but we can offer something to the end user. Even a page that lets them know they are missing out.

But CSS Nesting? We can have that and a fallback.

thesuitonym 4 hours ago||
The problem is webdevs don't do that. They say "98% is fine" and then don't program any fallback, or worse, actively block users that don't meet 100% compatibility.
phillipcarter 4 hours ago||
Probably because that extra 2% (or whatever figure) isn’t terrible valuable in the first place. Sometimes the best answer is “they’ll need to update their stuff”.
anoneng 4 hours ago||
The whole premise of the article is fallacious analogies and mixed metaphors.

Yes a restaurant that poisons 2% of its customers is a bad restaurant. A restaurant that has nothing for people who are strict kosher, strict halal, strict vegan, or have severe multiple food allergies is not a bad restaurant. There may be 5% of people who simply can’t eat there because the kitchen cooks pork and there’s peanut shells on the ground but their idiosyncratic requirements don’t dictate the experience of the other 95%. Or 90%, or what have you.

onion2k 3 hours ago||
If a fancy new feature can’t degrade gracefully, then 98% isn’t “widely supported”.

Close, but the other way round. Don't avoid a feature because it lacks good enough support. Write code to progressively enhance the experience if the feature is supported in the user's browser. If you're not willing to do that, then don't use the feature.

Progressive enhancement today means you can use pretty much any browser feature you want. You just have to do a bit of legwork with some @supports or JS prototype checking after doing the basic version first. It's not really much extra work.

VladVladikoff 6 hours ago||
I usually go by CanIUse's global percentage when deciding if I can utilize a new browser feature, and right now it's 90.81% (https://caniuse.com/css-nesting)

That's a bit lower than I would be comfortable with, however not that bad, we have been even considering switching all our images to AVIF: https://caniuse.com/?search=AVIF

And google uses Webp all over the place and that's sitting at 96% https://caniuse.com/webp

Author's 98% take is a bit misguided.

RetroTechie 6 hours ago||
Global statistics don't matter. What matters is current & potential visitors to your site. And how badly you want them served.

A professional B2B car parts dealer has a very different user profile than say, a local news site in rural Africa.

A site selling concert tickets (for popular artist) probably won't care if site doesn't work for 5% of visitors, the tickets will just take a bit longer to sell out.

But otoh I'm sure there's many businesses out there who wouldn't mind a 2..5% bump in conversion ratio for very little effort.

Personally I don't care. If I'm out to buy something online & webshop doesn't work or takes too long to load, my purchase goes elsewhere.

And ofc government services should be very conservative in this respect.

Edit: and yes, graceful degradation. It's ok if site doesn't look as intended but is still useable for that 2%. And eg. I love that some news site have a text-only lite version.

VladVladikoff 5 hours ago|||
With images specifically it’s a tradeoff. For image heavy sites like mine, the performance gains provided by webp for the 96% outweigh the potential degradation for the 4%. We get a fair amount of support tickets but not a single ticket has said “I can’t see your images on my X device” since switching to webp (~6months ago)
csande17 6 hours ago|||
It's really easy to serve fallback images to browsers that don't support AVIF, either client-side using the <picture> tag or server-side via the Accept header. Which mostly eliminates the concern from the article, since you don't have to drop support for any customers.

It kind of makes me wonder if anyone has made a build system / framework that serves nested CSS to modern browsers, and falls back to a preprocessed CSS file that removes all the nesting for older browsers.

degamad 5 hours ago|||
The author doesn't say you can't use features with 98% (or even less) support.

What they say is that you have to ensure that your site still works for the remaining users, through graceful degradation.

If people have new fancy browsers, use their features to make the interface jazzy. If they don't, ensure that the site still offers its core functionality to them without the fancy features.

VladVladikoff 5 hours ago||
That’s not actually possible with the example given in the article (dropping scss and moving to nested css), it’s all or nothing for many cases.
andrewingram 6 hours ago|||
For anyone who didn't know, caniuse lets you upload your actual usage data. Then for any capability, next to global support you also see the stats for your user-base.

https://caniuse.com/ciu/settings#usage

StilesCrisis 6 hours ago|||
Haven't checked, but I'm pretty sure Google falls back on older browsers.
BoppreH 6 hours ago||
Be careful with new image formats because they also have to be supported by the rest of the user's workflow. The browser might display it, but if it cannot be added to the photos app, or it's not understood by their image editor, or cannot be shared on their preferred chat app, then that's a fail.

WebP is especially hated for this among non-techies (31.8k upvotes, 1 month ago): https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinfuriating/comments/1trpuvr/...

andai 4 hours ago||
On the other hand, if you design something to include 100% of people, you will fail, and you will not give your core audience as good of an experience as they could have gotten.

So I like the opposite approach. If there's literally one guy on the planet, and this article/app/idea changes his life... what would that look like?

dsjoerg 4 hours ago||
Decisions are about tradeoffs. 2% of users staring at a broken screen is bad, of course. But what is the _cost_ of not using nested CSS? The responsible way to make a decision is to consider both sides of the tradeoff.
zipy124 7 hours ago|
This concept is missed so much in AI research and is quite frustrating.
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