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Posted by theanonymousone 1 day ago

Good Tools Are Invisible(www.gingerbill.org)
531 points | 250 commentspage 8
jshaqaw 1 day ago|
Obsessive hacker tools like Emacs are not a productivity enhancer. But If you find them fun go for it. You are allowed to have fun. You are allowed to enjoy your environment. If tinkering with Emacs is fun for you go for it. It's prob not replacing mental cycles for "productive" work. It's replacing zoning out with social media or YouTube between productive work times.

I can't justify using Emacs myself on a productivity basis. But working in an environment I think is fun while being productive makes me marginally happier.

gingerBill 1 day ago||
Which is kind of what I was arguing. Understand that having "fun" is not necessarily equivalent to being "productive". And even by an individuals own standards, the two can be completely different.

If you are having fun, and it's a hobby: who cares? If it's in the professional setting, make sure what you are doing is not actually wasting time and/or money, i.e. be productive.

computerfriend 1 day ago||
If my measured productivity decreases but my ability to find joy in what I do increases, it's probably worth it. Not to mention the second-order productivity boost that comes along with enjoying one's work.
sph 1 day ago|||
This is an objectively idiotic and uninformed take.

Do you people think we spend our weekends tweaking our configs because that is how we get our fun? Some do, sure, the vast majority have created their config once and find themselves more productive compared to whatever alternative you might be suggesting. Configuring vim or eMacs is an investment, as you are likely to still see it around in 20 years. Being familiar with one’s tools is the key to productivity.

Calling it an ‘obsessive hacker tool’ just shows you don’t know what you’re talking about, but come with preconceived notions about why people prefer other tools.

jshaqaw 13 hours ago||
I spend my weekends enjoying life and my family but I guess that’s just part of my objectively idiotic take on life.
jibal 21 hours ago||
> Obsessive hacker tools like Emacs are not a productivity enhancer.

This is intellectually dishonest framing. "obsessive hacker tools" is incoherent -- it's not the tool that is obsessive or a hacker. I don't obsessively hack emacs--I barely know elisp--and emacs is very much a productivity enhancer for me. The main benefit of the hackability of emacs for me is that hackers write useful packages for it that I occasionally run across and install.

CrociDB 1 day ago||
This is the type of text that tells more about the person writing than what it's written about. It feels to me his defending so hard his views because he doesn't even believe in it, as if he needs validation. Like, of course there are people who thinks vim is better because of macros, but I'm pretty sure many (if not most) of vim users don't even use that. Vim's main selling point is that you can do _anything_ without a mouse. And it's very customizable. Now, you can be more productive with any tool you want than the average vim user. Heck, I'm pretty sure there's at least one person in the world that's more productive using Notepad++ than the average vim user.

His whole rant on Linux and "highly configurable software" vs good defaults is just plainly nonsense to me.

> “Highly configurable” is often just an excuse for shipping no opinion at all and calling the resulting work your problem."

I couldn't disagree more. You can argue that Linux or other open-source software don't have "good defaults" is mostly because there's way less investment in 1) user experience; 2) quality assurance; mostly because there's no product logic involved in it.

Especially if you think that Linux, for example, is the mostly used in servers, and it works usually fantastically well in most server VMs. Maybe it needs a lot of fiddling to make it work on your old dell laptop because it's not where the work is put at. Windows will run well on it because Microsoft puts people actively working on making it run on most commercial user-end hardware. Apple machines will work perfectly on their hardware because that's what they're made for.

Arch Linux is not just better than any other Linux distro. It's better at one thing, just like Ubuntu is better at something else.

> I don’t want my tools to be “fun”. I want my tools to be invisible. > A good tool is and ought to be invisible—striving to make such tools is the goal of a toolmaker.

Bit of a wrong take, on my opinion. Every tool has its quirkiness, and you should embrace it. No tool is invisible. It feels less "visible" as you build more "muscle memory", but it's still there. We have to embrace the tools as part of the craft, not pretend they don't exist.

curtisblaine 1 day ago||
What is a good tool that's invisible? I'm genuinely curious. All tools I've used are either simple and heavily limited (so, not "invisible" because hard things are hard) or powerful but heavily specialized (so, not "invisible" because the learning curve is very evident). I feel the trade off is inescapable.
tpoacher 1 day ago||
That's just it though isn't it. Good tools that are invisible to you won't easily come to mind because they tend to be, well, invisible.

It's not until you randomly end up on a system which doesn't have that tool that its usefulness becomes visible; and I mean really visible.

dgellow 1 day ago|||
A tilling window manager is a fantastic tool that is close to invisible.

Though I don’t agree with the author. Visibility isn’t what matters, if you get comfortable with a specialized tool like a CAD software, or a game engine studio like Unreal, it’s not invisible at all but your brain will stop focusing on all the noise on your screen and you become pretty focused and productive. I live emacs, but Rider is also a fantastic editor.

Though I would love for things like LLMs to be way more out of your way, more “invisible”, more tool like. I hate the current UX of having to tame a patronizing, annoying fake human just to get things done the way I want them to be done

blanched 1 day ago|||
I think this is really insightful. Every "good and invisible" tool I thought of fit neatly into one of those two categories. Examples:

Powerful and specialized: automatic transmission, display/monitors

Simple and limited: syntax highlighting, deterministic autocomplete

The closest ones imo that bridge the gap: ssh, google search

dsmurrell 1 day ago|||
The eye.
curtisblaine 1 day ago||
Many definitions of tool explicitly exclude body organs to draw a line between innate mechanisms that are inestricably linked to the body and objects used to extend one's innate physical or mental influence on the environment. The eye is not a tool, according to these definitions, but eyeglasses are.
aioproductos 15 hours ago||
[flagged]
akoboldfrying 8 hours ago||
> taking a tool’s shortcomings and reselling them as a “puzzle game” which is “fun” to solve

cough Perl cough

low_tech_punk 1 day ago||
Agree that good tool should be invisible. We want essential not accidental complexity in how the tool works.

But good tool should also be fun and makes us feel productive. We can't neglect the emotional aspects of designs. And at the end of the day, if a less productive tool makes us much happier, we will less likely be burned out. That is productivity in the long term.

Maybe only AI Agent doesn't care about the emotional aspects fro tool use, but that's a separate topic.

Also, it's not about steep learning curves. We want low floor, high ceiling tools. Some of the examples the author used are either low floor low ceiling, or high floor high ceiling. Neither is ideal.

james_marks 1 day ago||
Solved problems are invisible.
mike_hock 1 day ago||
I completely agree that the author is right and the strawman is wrong.

For example. The strawman criticizes GUI apps because he cannot navigate them with the keyboard alone. Keyboard-navigated TUIs are the worst type of UI.

CLI > GUI > TUI.

I don't like interactive tools because they're not scriptable. I don't care about keyboard vs mouse per se.

I don't like having to use different tools for the same job depending on if it's local or over SSH, so I prefer non-GUI tools in general. I want to have the same workflow for checking the processes running on a server and on a desktop. So htop it is, even though it's a TUI.

In my experience, actual GUI and TUI applications tend to suck compared to CLI tools. Tend to. The strawman seems to think that somehow this makes that whole class of UI inherently bad, so once again, I couldn't agree more that he's wrong. Then again, I care about the actual experience, not about whether it's inherent or incidental.

order-matters 1 day ago|
good luck editing a photo with CLI tools ( though im sure someone has developed something for this lol)

to your point i think there is a lot of merit to having CLI-first development, where if it can be done in a CLI then do it in a CLI. if a GUI is to be built as an assistance tool, great, but let the actions map to commands that could be saved and re-run

mike_hock 1 day ago|||
> good luck editing a photo with CLI tools

Or good luck editing text with CLI tools, for that matter.

Obviously, those need an interactive UI.

> to your point i think there is a lot of merit to having CLI-first development, where if it can be done in a CLI then do it in a CLI. if a GUI is to be built as an assistance tool, great, but let the actions map to commands that could be saved and re-run

And this is probably why CLIs suck less in practice because the development effort isn't diluted by building multiple frontends.

skeater15 1 day ago||
I get the sentiment and agree with it but vim has multiple cursors. I'm sure gingerbill is aware of this so to use that example is a little strange.
gingerBill 1 day ago|
Vim does not have multiple cursors which can be placed ANYWHERE even multiple on the same line and at any offset. You are clearly not aware of what Vim actually offers.
miguel_martin 1 day ago|||
To be fair to the commenter, you didn't provide any details in the example you provided. For all we (the readers) know, Visual Block mode would have worked in the situation you are describing. I have to assume not, but it's not clear from the article.

Vim macros are not that hard to write, but I do agree with you, visual feedback is better. It can be annoying to have to re-record a macro, that's why I tend to use :s (search & replace) or Visual Block mode over using a macro (most of the time I don't need a macro).

I understand you state vim is "just an example", but you use this example as the main backbone of your article. Add more detail. You're arguing with vague anecdotes which requires the reader to read between the lines.

An aside: visual feedback, multi-cursor support and sane defaults is likely what led to new modal editors being created, such as Helix and Kakoune.

skeater15 1 day ago|||
Same line edits can be done with search and replace and regex. And your article doesnt specify offsets, in which case you can use a plugin, which you state you already have to do that for sublime's flaws. There's so many other examples you couldve used.
khalic 1 day ago|
Well that’s a lot of platitudes for such a short post…
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