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Posted by speckx 1 day ago

QuadRF can spot drones and see WiFi through my wall(www.jeffgeerling.com)
676 points | 217 comments
mrtnmcc 21 hours ago|
QuadRF creator here. Happy to answer questions!

We have a quick demo video as well: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QvniJk3uNyA

Along with a deeper dive video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zdJ9Tbm8ALg

We didn't give Jeff great direction on camera alignment calibration or setting the radio gain but he seemed to mostly figure it out. We're improving the UI based on his suggestions (it's open source so you can customize it too)

The RF augmented reality is just one of many applications of this brand new 4x4 MIMO software-defined radio built from the ground up. The AR uses a web app to stream RF points that your phone/laptop browser then live-merges with your local camera in the browser. I've been obsessed with low latency and high frame rate to make it a truly AR experience. More technical details at https://QuadRF.com/

mallets 19 hours ago||
The really intriguing part is the "Custom ADC" here, seems like some kind of 1-bit ΣΔ oversampling ADC (704 MSPS?). Single differential transistor, and captured by FPGAs LVDS RX.

Neat way to reduce cost and pin-count? But I think the typical FPGA clock tree has poor jitter performance. Not using the internal PLL(s) might help with spurs but the clock buffers are unavoidable.

The documentation mentions it's likely further degraded by noise from switching regulators. Oh the joys of hunting RF noise sources.

mrtnmcc 19 hours ago|||
We've got the switching noise nailed down. Fortunately the LVDS jitter doesn't affect the sigma delta too badly because that impacts proportional to baseband frequency which is largely filtered out by the decimation filters beyond 40 MHz.. With a total of eight ADCs per QuadRF, you can see we are getting huge savings by being custom! While the per-ADC ENOB is 7-8 bits, another nice thing about phased arrays is that the quantization/ADC noise averages away between elements, so with 8 ADCs in QuadRF we pick up another 1.5 bit giving 8.5-9.5 ENOB, which is frankly better than most SDRs. For the bigger phased arrays that improves further quickly.
tverbeure 15 hours ago|||
That’s so cool!

Reading these comments first, I assumed you were using a variant of Spartan 6 LVDS TDC trick which allows up to 200 Msps rates. (https://sps.ewi.tudelft.nl/pubs/Homulle15fpga.pdf)

But this is a really interesting use case as well, and something that could be used for a 16 channel logic analyzer with analog recording support like the Saleae Logic 16 Pro, but without expensive ADC from Analog Devices.

mallets 19 hours ago||||
Yeah, jitter doesn't matter too much at low frequency IF. I/Q calibration is more likely to be the bottleneck. That and close-in spurs from the fractional PLLs.

I have very little experience with MIMO / phased-arrays, this application likely doesn't need ultra high SFDR.

mrtnmcc 19 hours ago||
Yes, I actually designed the I/Q calibration for many of Analog Device's transceivers (AD93x), and indeed it is a fun problem. If you're interested in what was done for QuadRF, you can read: https://QuadRF.com/cals/txqec.html (Warning: Math!)
mallets 18 hours ago||
Oh wow, the AD936x series was impressive for its I/Q calibration. Still is I guess, because there's been no compelling alternative even a decade later.

As I mostly deal with single channel applications, I get to use double superhet and avoid runtime calibration. Not an option here, Zero-IF has too much in the Pros column for multichannel.

andrewstuart2 18 hours ago|||
I like to think of myself as pretty well-versed when it comes to hardware and software and even some RF. But this conversation has me hitting search a lot, lol. It's fascinating reading experts talk about a domain I have less experience in.
quietfox 10 hours ago|||
Glad I’m not the only one. I’ve been tinkering with sensors, robotics, sdr and similar stuff for 20 years now, but this conversation was way over my head.
geerlingguy 12 hours ago|||
Heh, welcome to RF; there are more rabbit holes to go down in domain specialty than I think there are grains of sand on a beach. I've gone down like... two. And I'm pretty overwhelmed.

I think that's why a lot of EEs and developers wind up getting an amateur radio license, or at least running a few fun RF projects.

Eisenstein 2 hours ago|||
For those confused about what this means, my understanding is this: when quantizing a wave you can use sampling rate to derive missing bits, so using even one bit can work if you do it fast enough, but jitter is a problem because it means the clock doesn't cleanly sync and it doesn't help non-quantization noise like those generated from switching supplies. Corrections welcome.
tverbeure 15 hours ago|||
Are you concerned about the issue that KrakenRF ran into with their passive radar demo project violating ITAR rules, or is that something that can easily be avoided by just not doing that specific kind of application?
mrtnmcc 14 hours ago||
We don't support passive or active radar beyond basic near-field sensing. We also proactively submitted a detailed report to the State Department earlier this year showing we don't exceed any of the USML criteria for ITAR controls. Separately we have an ECCN determination under EAR. This does rule us out from exporting to a few places (Cuba, Iran, Russia, North Korea, Syria, and some regions of Ukraine). But we are able to ship to most countries.
Ylpertnodi 2 hours ago||
> does rule out..... some regions of Ukraine

The occupied ones, presumably. But why is Ukraine broken up? Surely, you will be dealing with a government, and they'll know what to do/ where there current borders are.

radicality 17 hours ago|||
Product looks cool, not sure what I’ll use it for but did just purchase it on crowdsupply :) How did you settle on that frequency range btw? It’s 4.9 - 6ghz, so it will visualize the higher freq WiFi, but I guess it will not work for the 2.4ghz WiFi, or Bluetooth which is also around that frequency? And I don’t know tooo much about RF, but would including support for that range also, have necessitated much more complex/expensive hardware/antennas ?
mrtnmcc 16 hours ago|||
Thanks for the support! C-band is really the sweet spot in terms of affordability and compact size (the scale of the antennas and array spacing increases proportional to the wavelength). Maybe at some point we'll develop something at 2.4, but more devices are moving into 5GHz these days.
geokon 5 hours ago|||
My feel would be that 2.4 has the advantage of being much longer range and there are plenty of sources for 2.4 - if you wanted to look at back-scatter and not just sources of emission. The primary demo of this piece of equipment is looking at radiation sources, but as you guys show there are plenty of other possible applications. I feel like since 2.4Ghz stuff has been around for ages.. the stuff should be much cheaper? Just a guess though :) Would be curious to know what the reality looks like

And cool to see you guys are from Santa Barbara. Lots of relevant talent there :)

bigiain 13 hours ago||||
Is there a decent rule of thumb about how this style of antenna scales with frequency?

I'd kinda like something like this that could do 2.4GHz, 850-950MHz and even down as low as 400MHz.

Would by uneducated guess that 2.4GHz antennas would be twice the size, 900MHz about 6 times the size, and 400MHz about 10 times the size?

geerlingguy 12 hours ago|||
If you ever want to go into the KHz range, you could build a ship-scale platform to carry the antennas :D
victorhooi 6 hours ago|||
This does look cool - but I suspect most of the stuff I'd use it with is 2.4 Ghz (i.e. ISM band) - IOT devices, wireless keyboard/mouse, wireless cameras, drones etc

Is a 2.4Ghz version mostly about the larger physical size? Or are there other technical limitations to overcome as well?

And cost wise - would it be 2x this version ($499) - or higher?

ZeroCool2u 3 hours ago|||
Really cool! Just ordered one. Do you guys have an active lab in SB?
antman 4 hours ago|||
What distance of drone detection would this theoretically have?
yonatan8070 2 hours ago||
I assume it depends mostly on what frequency and TX power the drone in question is using, as well as the RF environment you're operating in and the noise floor of the SDR
developer5502 18 hours ago|||
Super cool project I've been following for a while. Are you pivoting away from Earth-Moon-Earth radio astronomy? I first bookmarked this project when your site was hosted at https://open.space
mrtnmcc 18 hours ago||
Yes open-space was a short-lived name: https://domainnamewire.com/2026/04/08/u-s-defense-contractor... (good story though) We finally settled on Scale RF for the company and Quad RF for the product (and Moon RF for the bigger phased arrays!). Yes that incident kind of made our brand a mess..
stagger87 13 hours ago|||
Nice project, congrats!

Rx/TX isolation?

Typical image rejection (dB)?

Does it support hardware level timestamping to align tx and rx samples through soapy?

digdugdirk 19 hours ago|||
Super cool! I noticed you had a blurb about it being used for mesh networks? Could you please go into more details/provide links to resources to learn more about that?
mrtnmcc 19 hours ago||
Absolutely :) we're working on documenting an awesome Meshtastic demo. Should have a writeup next week to add to the Crowd Supply updates page. Also Roy on our team will be demoing it (along with the RF augmented reality) at Teardown 2026 in Portland if you're in that neck of the woods.
RyJones 16 hours ago|||
if I put two of these far-ish apart, can I get better 3d/4d data?
butvacuum 16 hours ago||
of course? not working directly together maybe, but put them at right angles and you get depth without relying on signal amplitude analysis.

did I misunderstand the question?

RyJones 5 hours ago||
Something like this: https://youtu.be/YZkLQsv3huo
stackedinserter 19 hours ago|||
That is super cool, man.

Do you have a demo for that 240 elements assembly?

mrtnmcc 19 hours ago||
We should have a video about MoonRF once we finish the QuadRF mass production, look for it ~ early September! Will be legendary! You can read on how the multi-tile synchronization and calibration works here: https://QuadRF.com/docs/#phased-arrays
tokai 20 hours ago|||
Cool project! What is the max detection range?
mrtnmcc 19 hours ago||
It really depends on the transmitter strength, but if you set the Rx gain high on the QuadRF, we get within 2dB of the thermal noise detection limit.. so about as good as is possible with a receiver this size. I believe a few km is easily doable with a consumer drone but we haven't focused on it.
momoschili 16 hours ago||
can this sense mice?
noduerme 19 hours ago||
Funny, in the "imagine what governments are capable of" vein, I just read this[0] a few minutes ago before coming over to HN to find this post trending.

[0] https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/the-future-takes-fl...

quietsignal 6 hours ago||
Yep, been in the works for a while. Ericsson, Nokia Bell Labs and Qualcomm have been publishing press releases regarding ISAC and telecom providers also sees new potential market of S2aaS, especially if there is a push towards autonomous robots, vehicles that need the data for mapping & training data.

Future networks using millimeter-wave (mmWave) and sub-terahertz (THz) frequencies may collect or infer detailed information about people, devices, bystanders, passive objects, and environments in a sixth-generation (6G) deployment area. It may detect breathing and heart rate of biological bodies.

https://eprint.iacr.org/2026/1069

greggsy 2 hours ago||
Seems like a contender for the tricorder prize that was announced ten or so years ago might not be too far off.
jeremyjh 4 hours ago|||
I have a feeling they are not planning to sell it to government agencies for $500. Our tax dollars will go a lot less far I expect.
cucumber3732842 3 hours ago|||
Remember how for years starting in the late teens and fizzling out over covid university paper after university paper about "this is so cool look how we can see through walls by essentially using 5g and wifi as ambient light" and they steadily marched up the chain from simple room layouts to furniture layouts, occupant detection, occupant movement and then started being dressed up with the usual dogwhistle language about "emergency services" that people who are building tech to help infantry/police entry teams use to make it seem more noble and then after that it all just kinda stopped being publicized with any sort of regularity?

I'm not a conspiracy theorist but I'd say all the people working on that shit got hired.

Sorry not sorry for the run on sentence.

greggsy 2 hours ago||
I stopped reading halfway through in frustration and then saw your apology.

You only need to apologise to yourself really.

Aachen 17 hours ago||
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piinbinary 22 hours ago||
One day I want to build something like this, except for sound. It would be great to get a heading and distance for where a sound is coming from.

This could be both for small scale things (e.g. which part of this is squeaking?) or large scale (e.g. is that booming noise coming from the construction a few blocks away?)

dfc 22 hours ago||
Fluke has made an acoustic imager for a while now. It is used for detecting leaks:

https://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/industrial-imaging/fluke...

geerlingguy 22 hours ago|||
There are a few knockoff options too, which are not quite as nicely calibrated, but get the job done for much less than Fluke-level prices. Like the FOTRIC TD2.

I think a few people have made homebrew versions too, like this one mentioned on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45137584

m463 20 hours ago||
interesting on amazon:

fluke $25k

flir $10k

td2 $1k

These are the kinds of things you look at and think - maybe I DO need night-vision, or a soldering iron with a cpu, or a thermal imager, or a steerable endoscope or now an acoustic imager....

thomashabets2 20 hours ago||
If you own your home I'd say you need a thermal imager. Just the ability to diagnose clogged pipes is priceless.

https://x.com/ThermoInstagram/status/909356506059026432

Also for checking if microwaved food is ready.

greggsy 1 hour ago|||
+1 to thermal imager. I use mine to locate hot wires, heating and cooling gaps in the roof and around windows, car maintenance, the pizza oven, and its even sensitive enough to ‘see’ studs in the wall.

Priceless on one occasion for finding leaks in the ceiling, which are notoriously hard to pinpoint.

left-struck 3 hours ago|||
Can also be used for looking at heat leaking into or out of your house via conduction, which can help you determine where there might be more insulation needed, or maybe a particular wall needs more shade in summer.
its_down_again 21 hours ago|||
Has anyone tried acoustic imaging for water leaks inside walls? I live in a multi-floor 1900s Victorian. A leak can affect several units, and tracing the source can mean opening walls or floors in multiple places, and coordinating access has been getting harder with less WFH.

Could one of these tools help map water pipe routes and trace a leak, or are they only going to be useful for air and gas leaks?

iamniels 20 hours ago|||
For a water leak a sound imaging device is not going to help you.

You should definitely try a thermal camera. Any moisture will create small temperature differences which are easily picked up by a thermal camera.

_trampeltier 18 hours ago|||
Flir has some thermal cameras with 'special moisture' modes. In the end, wet areas are just colder.
cluckindan 19 hours ago|||
Moisture camera. Now there is an idea.
fc417fc802 17 hours ago||
Initially I scoffed, but then I recalled that certain RF bands are disproportionately absorbed by water and this is used for certain sorts of atmospheric imaging by satellites. So you'd need a moisture "light" and an RF camera. Other than being cost prohibitive it sounds like an awesome toy.
archi42 16 hours ago|||
It still works pretty well in the IR band. I know that one from experience due to storm damage to our roof ;-)

A leak only turns invisible if the water has the exact same temperature as the wall and there is no meaningful evaporation happening (as that cools the affected area).

Of course don't let me stop you from actively probing your all using RF. Though also there you might have good chances with IR, since wet $stuff should behave differently than dry $stuff ;-)

KaiserPro 9 hours ago|||
WArning I am not an expert

There is a man call leak detective, who hunts for leaks in the UK. one tool he has is shutting off the water and filling the pipes with gas and using either sound or gas detector to pin down leaks.

A lot of the time he just listens though.

greggsy 1 hour ago||
Up until the 90’s airline in flight entertainment use stethoscope style earphones. My dad used to steal them for his workshop as a way to hear for leaks in various parts.

Our ears and eyes are very high bandwidth sensors.

mrtnmcc 20 hours ago|||
Realtime sound visualization was actually a project I did 20 years ago as a freshman and that (probably?) inspired me to build this AR app in QuadRF.

On balance, I would say this RF version was 200x harder.

flutas 22 hours ago|||
Not sure if you've heard of them, but they're starting to come to market with this exact thing aside from distance detection and more on the "which part is squeaking" side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8-5lSVCR2w

cenamus 22 hours ago|||
I think you'll be very interested in this awesome project

https://ribbonfarm.com/2016/06/29/the-daredevil-camera/

hinkley 21 hours ago|||
The army has one of these for sniper triangulation, and Boeing made a civilian version for optimizing sound dampening on the 787. I don’t know if they kept doing that on subsequent planes but I would expect so given how enthusiastic they were about being able to apply the weight budget to greater effect.

You need really high clock rate sensing to differentiate the arrival time for sound from microphone arrays where they are all less than a nanosecond separated from each other.

azalemeth 20 hours ago|||
A nanosecond? The speed of sound at sea level in dry air is approximately 330m/s. So at say 3.3 kHz, the rough logarithmic middle of the audible spectrum, K=2π/lambda is 2π/0.1 m=20 π rad/m. A phase difference from a source difference k. ∆r would therefore likely be far more easily resolved than that for many physical ∆rs then, no?
KaiserPro 9 hours ago||
MAybe the high clock rate it to allow it to read the output of the ADCs serially?
a_paddy 20 hours ago|||
Given that it was McDonnell Douglas, sorry Boeing, they probably cut it.
KaiserPro 9 hours ago|||
respeaker and https://github.com/introlab/odas might be a good starting point without having to make hardware.

Making the hardware is fairly achievable without having to do fancy things. but if you want >8 channels you'll need to make some custom interface hardware.

Torkel 21 hours ago|||
There are products in this space, eg https://www.crysound.com/

Very cool stuff, can be used for drone detection at up to 200m. Accuracy is not super good, unless you make mic spacing a bit large.

wkjagt 20 hours ago|||
Steve Mould did a cool video on this: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QtMTvsi-4Hw
simplyalec 21 hours ago|||
I've seen http://soundryx.com/
tzs 21 hours ago|||
Like in this Steve Mould video, "Acoustic cameras can SEE sound" [1]?

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtMTvsi-4Hw

lowbloodsugar 19 hours ago|||
I want that but for smell.
amelius 1 hour ago|||
Nobody can do that. Use dogs.
NopIdoN 18 hours ago|||
You could try training wasps.
tenuousemphasis 16 hours ago|||
You should visit Orfield Labs in Minnesota.
wyager 20 hours ago|||
There's a company in Austin that uses sound for drone localization, although I forget the name
andrehacker 21 hours ago|||
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piinbinary 21 hours ago||
ChatGPT tells me that it would take a very large array to detect distance with any accuracy
mlfreeman 23 hours ago||
The visualizer reminds me of my thermal camera.

I have heard claims of devices (mostly TVs) supposedly coming with secret 5G cell uplinks built in [never heard a specific model mentioned though].

If there were more variants covering more commonly-used RF bands, people could walk around and literally check for once.

(incidentally i'm sure three letter agencies have had this sort of tech in their bug-detecting toolkit for a LONG time)

mikeweiss 23 hours ago||
Whos paying the telcos for those 5G connections and also has the FCC been degraded so much that they would allow for undeclared radios in consumer products?
FuriouslyAdrift 23 hours ago|||
More likely 4G LTE MTM (https://www.verizon.com/business/products/internet-of-things...). It's dirt cheap and paid for by the vendor of the device it is in (usually) in the name of 'telemetry'.

I've seen so many random industrial devices and parts come into our plant that have their own cellular it's wild.

mikeweiss 21 hours ago||
You really think these are in TVs going unoticed and someone is paying for each radio?
FuriouslyAdrift 21 hours ago||
I have $100 devices in industrial devices that have them. In bulk, they cost next to nothing (not quite as cheap as RFID but getting there).
tredre3 20 hours ago||
But in your scenario they are an integral and necessary part of the device, so it's costed in.

In a television it's an added cost and it's unclear if serving ads really can offset that extra $25-100 of hardware (and included data) you ship on a $200-1000 television.

It's also unclear to me if the low data packages they come with would be enough to serve meaningful ads to begin with. Those devices usually come with a fixed plan of 100MB/month for 5yrs (or along those lines). Modern smart tv ads are very often video or at least hi res images.

semi-extrinsic 19 hours ago|||
> In a television it's an added cost and it's unclear if serving ads really can offset that extra $25-100 of hardware (and included data) you ship on a $200-1000 television.

Amazon seems to have done the math and found that it makes sense to give a $20 discount on a $180 device if it lets them display very unobtrusive ads on the lockscreen. So I don't think you are correct.

fc417fc802 17 hours ago|||
Why are you assuming the primary motivator is to serve ads? Smart TVs were already caught running content ID against the contents of the screen and phoning that data home. "Routing at the edge" is the euphemism for the logical extension of that.

> extra $25-100

Your estimated costs are off by at least one order of magnitude, probably two.

Of course none of this makes much sense in a world where smart TVs have ubiquitous wifi, most consumers have one, most consumers run the stock OS, and most consumers connect it to the public internet. It would be entirely viable if not for that status quo.

jcims 21 hours ago||||
My truck (Ford) has some cell connectivity that I’ve never paid for. At scale it’s likely very inexpensive.
drnick1 17 hours ago||
Unfortunately, it's used to spy on you, and insurance companies are known to buy the data to profile customers or prospective customers. The good thing about Fords is that the cell modem often has its own fuse.
throwaway85825 23 hours ago||||
Secret 5G is not as common because there is a huge incentive to resell the free service. Maybe with eSIM it will be harder. Kindles uses to have a free data plan SIM.
thomashabets2 19 hours ago||
> huge incentive to resell the free service

Not all mobile data APNs go to the Internet. You can't resell an IP service that lands on an RFC1918 network with exactly one IP:port available; the API endpoint.

Not saying I've seen this in devices, but I have built and run mobile data networks with private APNs.

bluGill 22 hours ago||||
Telcos sell off peak only 5g for cheap. Only to large companies that are willing to work with the limits. Often it is low bandwidth.
ireflect 12 hours ago||
This is interesting. Do you have any specific examples?
ethin 22 hours ago||||
The FCC is literally powerless nowadays for all intents and purposes. They've abrogated so much of their authority to the states now that they might as well be eliminated. What little authority that remains with it is bought and paid for to the point that I'm sure you could get anything "approved" if you wanted.
mschuster91 22 hours ago|||
> has the FCC been degraded so much that they would allow for undeclared radios in consumer products?

Well... most TVs already have a WiFi/BT chipset for stuff like advertisements or, especially with Apple, high-bandwidth video streaming. There is already a radio module present, but (IIRC) you don't have to disclose what exactly that module is capable of.

sroussey 21 hours ago|||
You definitely are required to disclose what frequencies are used and at what power.
mikeweiss 21 hours ago|||
Uhh yes you absolutely do need to disclose exactly what each is capable of. Each radio must itself be approved by the FCC and documented
MomsAVoxell 9 hours ago|||
It always impresses me that technology ideas once exposed in the nefarious background of the Snowden revelations, has now become mainstream, almost passé among the technocratie, but then I remember that there is a very dominant event horizon where all technology is weaponized/de-weaponized according to the intentions of its users..

It's going to been pretty wild to see QuadRF being applied for things. I can only imagine there are weapons-technologists who will bolt this onto hunter/killer drones at some point. A lynchpin technology for the inevitable drone wars.

drnick1 17 hours ago||
> I have heard claims of devices (mostly TVs) supposedly coming with secret 5G cell uplinks built

This is occasionally mentioned on HN, but I have not yet seen a specific instance of this. Please share if you know something about secret 5G cell modems used to spy on people.

Barbing 15 hours ago||
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RobotToaster 22 hours ago||
Build this into smart glasses and it would be fascinating.
swalberg 2 hours ago||
Would something like this work at much lower frequencies? Being able to see RF at 3-30MHz would be fantastic for hunting RFI in the amateur radio HF bands.
fierycatnet 22 hours ago||
I just kinda skimmed through it, so it detects drones in sky? Am I understanding this correctly? That might have some defense application considering what's going on in Eastern Europe right now.
TrackerFF 21 hours ago||
It detects drones which send out RF signals at the same frequency band. Most drones used in Ukraine are tethered with thin optical wire exactly because one of the first anti-drone measures was to simply jam them at the frequencies the operators used.

There are some more advanced anti-drone measures at work: Like blasting them with directed high-energy microwaves to destroy the circuits.

euroderf 21 hours ago|||
Frequency hopping is not THAT difficult.
squarefoot 21 hours ago||
Brute force wide band jamming would be easy too and would make hopping ineffective. Unless drones use self tuning antennas to overcome losses, they can't hop too far away from the antenna resonance frequency, which makes jammers job easier.
varjag 20 hours ago||
Jamming broadband is a lot more energy expense than frequency hopping. Orders of magnitude.
thomashabets2 20 hours ago|||
But the jammer can be plugged in to the grid or a diesel generator. Being on the ground without flight requirements grants access to such resources.
varjag 20 hours ago|||
Yes. That makes it fat, expensive and vulnerable target. There are videos of them being blown up regularly.
thomashabets2 19 hours ago||
Which is a completely unrelated to what we were talking about.
varjag 19 hours ago||
How come? It plainly negates the "easy" part. It's not easy at all, you need to scale your signal path to the magnitude of power. I.e. the expensive part.
fer 20 hours ago|||
But such a jammer is expensive and a magnet for HARMs that only need that RF signature as guidance.
thomashabets2 19 hours ago||
Which is a completely unrelated to what we were talking about.
fer 18 hours ago||
How is SEAD unrelated to drone warfare? Unless you believe anti radiation missiles/drones can't target jammers.
thomashabets2 6 hours ago||
The topic was energy expense of wideband vs narrowband jamming.

Both can be used for targeting.

squarefoot 5 hours ago||||
True, but they can't use directional antennas nor lots of power, and once they're far enough from the transmitter inverse square law does the rest. Ground stations always have an advantage because of higher gain antennas and more power available.
michaelt 19 hours ago|||
I mean, drones trailing fiber optic cables are widely documented https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiber_optic_drone

So I’m pretty sure avoiding jamming by a military adversary is not trivial, even with frequency hopping and suchlike.

varjag 19 hours ago||
FPV drones in the Russian war are generally pretty dumb devices, there's usually no frequency hopping involved to begin with. They have a lot more in common with baby monitors than with modern military comms.
lazide 19 hours ago||
Lol, even baseline DJI drone chipsets from a decade ago do frequency hopping. Many baby monitors probably do too.
varjag 19 hours ago||
You can literally see the analog video links in countless thousands of published recordings. Nobody really does the hopping with analog video.
lazide 14 hours ago||
From early in the war, sure.
idiotsecant 21 hours ago|||
Most drones aren't optical because optical drones sacrifice payload and distance, they're only used when broad spectrum jamming is expected. Jamming of that type is expensive and heavy enough that infantry probably won't be jamming, or light vehicles, or a lot of infrastructure.
creaturemachine 20 hours ago||
Most light vehicles are jamming, and infantry at least have detection capability, which is why fibre is now the standard for close range.
shakow 21 hours ago|||
> That might have some defense application considering what's going on in Eastern Europe right now.

This is a bog-standard phased-array RDF calibrated for WiFi freqs; that stuff is already in every single defense show.

Also, that's why there's jamming everywhere (to blind that kind of things) and why many UAVs are now tethered to optical fibers instead of being RF-controlled.

IshKebab 20 hours ago||
Yeah I think it is at every defense show, but that doesn't mean it makes it to the front lines. Defense show = super expensive. This is cheap.
thomashabets2 20 hours ago|||
Homing in on sources of electromagnetic transmissions has been a thing since at least the BV246 in 1943.

The first phased array systems date back to 1905.

We have had some time to productionize this.

Hell, the "PA" in "PATRIOT missile" stands for "Phased Array".

IshKebab 9 hours ago||
I'm not saying it's new technology. The patriot missile costs $4m each. None of the drones Ukraine is using have this tech.

The new thing is that it's available for purchase for a reasonable price.

shakow 6 hours ago|||
Why would they put phased arrays on UAVs? They are typically using beam-forming antennas + cheap gimbals for the same purpose.

Phased arrays are nice when you want to scan a large angular surface very fast; when it comes down to optimizing RF radiation toward your ground station, a gimbal is cheaper, simpler, and works fine.

thomashabets2 6 hours ago|||
While it doesn't produce an image, not having 2D data, KrakenSDR has some cool direction finding too.
shakow 20 hours ago|||
> Defense show = super expensive

Really depends; there you can see both Lockmart exhibiting multi-billions project, and 150m after some Serbian company selling jet engines for UAVs for a couple hundreds.

PaulHoule 22 hours ago||
Very much so.

I had a friend who'd just gotten out of EE school as a non-traditional student who was working for a company that was making radars for tracking drones maybe five years before the 2022 Russian invasion.

That was an active system, similar in concept to the radars used in air defense system just scaled down and faster acting.

The one in this article is a passive system that sees the transmitter on the drone. The comm link is the obvious weak spot on the drone as it can be detected and jammed, it is fairly inevitable that lethal attack drones that work anonymously will be widespread as a result.

embedding-shape 21 hours ago||
> that sees the transmitter on the drone. The comm link is the obvious weak spot on the drone

Isn't most drones run by fiber optic nowadays around the front-lines though? Can't really jam those, but maybe still detect it somehow?

RealityVoid 21 hours ago||
According to CivDiv's channel about 70% of the drones used are still RC FPV drones. They are cheaper longer range and have a slightly simpler supply chain. Fiber optic cable prices have exploded because of the war.
creaturemachine 20 hours ago||
If you count recon and droppers that can use distance to avoid jamming, sure. One-way applications are increasingly fibre.
RealityVoid 8 hours ago||
Can you back this up with any authoritative sources?
fiatpandas 1 day ago||
The visualizer app reminds me of the same UI / output you get from acoustic cameras.
Scene_Cast2 1 day ago|
I wonder if this tool can help with EMC compliance testing. My TinySA needs an LNA, so I wonder if this has the required noise floor.
raziel2701 23 hours ago||
I don't see any professionals turning to this for EMC/EMI testing, they already have all the test equipment for that job.
varispeed 23 hours ago|||
How about "non-professionals"? It could be useful to check device before sending for pre-compliance / compliance checks and save money - that would avoid very expensive iterations.
lambda 23 hours ago||
But there are already benchtop or handheld signal analyzer for that purpose.

This seems more like a tool for checking across entire large assemblies like an entire building, car, aircraft, etc, for unknown sources. If you have an individual discrete device that you're already testing, just using traditional instrumentation seems reasonable, but on a large, complex assembly, I can see it being useful. Also useful for things like detecting if a particular antenna is working without actually going up there to measure near it; if you have a MIMO setup with multiple antennas, this might make it easier to check if all of them are working correctly when mounted in inconvenient areas.

peteforde 23 hours ago|||
That's absolutely missing the point. EMC/EMI testing is expensive, time consuming and requires scheduling and experiment design.

Being able to do local soft-run testing on-site to be sure that you eliminate the easy 90% of issues before you get to the lab would be a huge win.

lambda 23 hours ago||
I think that for a single device, this probably wouldn't help much over just having a more traditional signal analyzer, either benchtop or handheld. If you know what you're testing, just using a signal analyzer around it will give you a good first pass picture of emissions, and probably be much more informative and precise than this.

This seems more useful for finding unknown or hidden RF sources, for instance looking thorugh an entire building to find unknown RF sources, or maybe a whole complex assembly like a car or aircraft.

peteforde 17 hours ago||
It is surreal to me that a comment stating that being able to do a certification pre-check on site before booking testing got downvoted.

Sure, maybe this isn't the device for that... but the idea that what I said was objectionable is just bizarre.

tliltocatl 22 hours ago||
I don't think it's any good for that. It's relatively narrowband and not the frequency you usually have issues with EMC on (5 to 6GHz - unless you are specially transmitting on this frequency you are unlikely to emit anything there).
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