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Posted by bilsbie 10 hours ago

Sleep regularity is a stronger predictor of mortality risk than sleep duration (2023)(academic.oup.com)
597 points | 297 commentspage 2
sajithdilshan 8 hours ago|
My problem is that I'm always sleepy throughout the day and when I have to go to bed at nigh, then I feel so active and energetic, as if my body tries its best to avoid sleeping.
mordae 41 minutes ago||
Chance is you are not breathing in your sleep. You have Apnea or UARS and are slowly suffocating. Easy tells: you look like shit in the morning and it takes hours for you to normalize, you sometimes wake up all sweaty, you tend to open window ASAP in the morning "to get rid of the stuffy air", you are confused and/or have headache in the morning.

If you want to make sure, get a sleep study done.

Why do you think you are avoiding the bed as if you were afraid of dying in there. Exactly! You literally are.

cobbaut 8 hours ago|||
My doctor said "you have to earn your sleep". I had the same problem until:

- two pieces of fruit per day

- two portions of vegetables per day

- half an hour of outside sunshine per day

- twice per week exercise until you sweat

- no sleep during the day

- get out of bed every morning around the same time

- no processed food!

Tesl 7 hours ago|||
Kinda funny seeing this reply side to side with the "I just took LSD" one
stronglikedan 6 hours ago|||
I wish your doctor's advice worked on me. I'm in the same boat as the person you're responding to, and I follow all this advice as well.
pjerem 7 hours ago|||
I was in the same boat as you and it seems I solved it.

What I did :

- LSD (microdosing + a semi dose one year ago) did absolute wonders on my anxiety (which was what kept me energetic). I would then describe myself as having a general anxiety disorder and I now describe myself as chill af. It's amazing. I'm still stressed out by things but that's normal and not my default mode anymore.

- Prolonged-release melatonin keeps me asleep for the whole night

- Took the habit of reading in the bed. I'm so tired that most evenings, I have a really hard time to read 5-10 pages, I must fight to keep my eyes open.

sajithdilshan 7 hours ago||
okay, I'm curious, have you build an addiction? or do you think you can keep on reducing the dose and stop using it but still have the benefits. I've read somewhere that LSD can kind of re-wire your brain
__MatrixMan__ 6 hours ago||
LSD has risks, especially if you're already prone to certain kinds of mental illness (you might not know it), but addiction isn't really one of them.

Going for a walk can also rewire your brain, but doing so on LSD will probably rewire it more quickly. Whether that's good or bad depends on whether you do a good job with the rewiring. It comes down to how well you trust yourself.

mherkender 6 hours ago|||
I do that, it seems like a self-reinforcing pattern I end up in after messing up my sleep schedule. I take a sleep aid (like Zzzquil) for a bit to get back on schedule. Caffine before 1pm or so helps too.
lanfeust6 5 hours ago||
This is a shifted circadian rhythm. If you get up late, you'll be sleepy late; additionally, blue-light exposure at night (from screens) suppresses melatonin production and can delay onset. The fix isn't to "go to bed early" first, it's to get up early and get exposure to sunlight then and during the day, and the sleep pressure in the evening will follow in kind. This is further facilitated by giving yourself time in the evening to wind-down away from screens, by having a ritual/routine (an hour at least) such as preparing breakfast, reading, doing yoga, whatever.

Think of it like jet lag. If you travel to the other side of the world, you rapidly shift schedule in accordance with your habits (the timing of your meals, light exposure, activity, socializing etc), whether that be night or day. These inputs more than ever influence morning-ness or evening-ness qua chronotype, with the advent of limitless evening light and entertainment.

cortic 4 hours ago||
Sleep is a predictor of poverty and poverty is a predictor of mortality.

But i suspect if you hop over the second part there will be more funding in telling poor people to sleep there way to longevity.

bkazez 8 hours ago||
Having just spent a few months reading circadian entrainment papers for a circadian rhythm app I just finished,[1] I wonder if this effect might be about circadian amplitude[2] (rather than phase, which has gotten more attention).

[1] https://www.impulsearc.com/wavelength/

[2] e.g. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41540-023-00300-w

barrenko 8 hours ago|
Also just the general timezone stuff, genetics ~ I've moved from the right end of a timezone to the left end, it's been killing me.
small_model 7 hours ago||
I do bi/tri phase sleep, 6 hours at night, and 1-2 naps a day (I work remotely so allows me to nap when I want) This is the best, sleep when you need to you body knows best.

Do you think our ancestors slept exactly 8 hours a night from 10pm to 6am? No they slept when they wanted.

quietbritishjim 6 hours ago||
> Do you think our ancestors slept exactly 8 hours a night from 10pm to 6am?

Yeah I pretty much do expect that (but more like 6 or 7). They were awake a few hours after sunset by fire light, then get up fairly early. I certainly don't imagine them napping during the day, when they could be working together to get food, unless it's a climate where it's too hot to do anything in the middle of the day.

Studies of modern hunter gatherers seem to back this up e.g. [1]

It's widely known that Victorians would have two sleeps over night, with a productive period in the middle, but this seems to be a misconception based on a passing remark in one court case. Even if true, this is a post-industrial society with unhealthily long working hours and I don't think we should be copying their sleep patterns.

[1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096098221...

thesuitonym 6 hours ago|||
Nearly all predators spend large portions of their day sleeping, why would humans have been different?
zeroonetwothree 5 hours ago||
Bears sleep about 7-8 hours/day, similar to humans.
small_model 5 hours ago|||
Watch male lions they sleep when they want, laze about all day until they need to eat. Or you can be a deer caught in the corporate wage slave, alarm clock prisoner headlights.
raddan 5 hours ago|||
Artificial light has a huge effect on drowsiness for me. This is quite noticable when I am out in the woods, camping in a tent. After sundown, I have about an hour left before I get so drowsy that I cannot keep my eyes open. Back home, indoors, I can stay awake almost indefinitely.
zeroonetwothree 5 hours ago||||
What about female lions?
trallnag 5 hours ago|||
Watch birds they fly when they want. Or you can be a slave worm bound to the earth. The choice is yours
small_model 3 hours ago||
If you watch birds you will see they don't use alarm clocks nor go to work, but still find food each day.
stronglikedan 6 hours ago|||
I've tried this but naps make me groggy for the rest of the day, or sometimes I get confused thinking it's the next day. What's your secret to waking up refreshed from a nap?
raddan 5 hours ago|||
My PhD advisor likes to drink a coffee just prior to falling asleep. That way the caffiene slowly kicks in and wakes him up. I can't do this--I already have trouble sleeping and I feel the effects of coffee quickly.

But to answer your question-- for me, washing my face helps a lot. I don't know why. Not that I nap all that often.

small_model 5 hours ago|||
I am groggy but I drink a Coke Zero and within 10-20 mins I feel great. Whereas without sleep I would be flagging.
stingraycharles 7 hours ago||
There’s plenty of evidence that people used to sleep very early, and have a period of activity in the night, before having a second period of sleep.

I follow the same schedule as you do, and also work remotely, and usually take a single 1-2h nap somewhere between 12pm - 3pm. It makes me have two moments of “morning productivity”, which works very well for me.

In the end, listen to your body.

markus_zhang 9 hours ago||
I kinda realize that the most important factor for personal success (whatever kind of success you want) is mental stability.

Like, John Carmack said that he NEVER burned out, never went into a dark corner (verbatim from his interview), and everyone agrees that he works like a machine. And I don't think he actually spent a lot of mental training to achieve that stability, because, he has been like that from a young age. This is THE best thing you can have in the world, if you want to achieve something, anything. If you don't have the mental toughness, you won't be able to make through that 10,000 hours (cliche, I know). I guess that's also why many self-help book talk about being consistent -- to be consistent, is to have mental stability. And I think there is a whole difference, between someone who trains his mental to stay stable for 6 months, then collapse, from someone who actually doesn't need to train and just be stable somehow.

This also leads me to realize that good sleep is one of the fundamentals of a stable mind. As a parent, I actually don't remember when was the last time I had a good sleep, and my definition of a night of good sleep is perhaps just trivial for someone else. At the same time, I consider myself lucky, because at least I don't suffer from serious mental issues. I still have a job and a house, and that's better than many out there.

This then leads me to despise the human body. It is a machine so delicate that you have to be very lucky to be super productive, whatever your definition of being productive is. It seems to ignore the input in short term (e.g. you can eat garbage food for a month and nothing really happens, or, you can sleep 4-6 hours every day for the last 6 years and still function normally), but once the long term shows up it is very hard to reverse. And there are so many theories focused on it that we have no idea which one is best for the individual. You might as well spend years doing A/B test on yourself and still have no idea what the hell is going on. Or you need to be super rich to have some medical team monitor you 7/24 to figure out what the hell is going on.

nickjj 9 hours ago||
Carmack always seemed to have a really strong idea on what was important for him to work on. How much of that is mental toughness vs having a believable purpose?

Believable is important because you have to internally 100% without a doubt believe that what you're doing is the right thing to be doing now.

As soon as the "what ifs" starts to creep in for the big picture items or goals, that can destroy everything. I'm not talking about running into technical implementation problems along the way (those can be fun), it's more like "did I pick the right language for this?" level of questions that sit in the back of your mind.

Personally when I find something to work on that I like and will have what I think is a favorable outcome, it's easy to put in 8-10 real 100% laser focused hours into a task every day, even if it spans weeks or months. I'd like to think most people can do this too, the hard part (for me at least) is having these things to work on.

grvdrm 5 hours ago||
You are spot on. I see all this in me, too. Very interesting to encounter your take.

I try to turn what-ifs into actions. Instead of a what if rumination it is a small task, or a small trial of something, or a move in general forward rather than not. Not even remotely close to doing this well all the time, but I notice an overall boost in mood and productivity when I reorient my mint to progress rather searching in the uncertainty space.

gchamonlive 8 hours ago|||
> Like, John Carmack said that he NEVER burned out, never went into a dark corner (verbatim from his interview), and everyone agrees that he works like a machine.

> https://x.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/2069799283369345247

That's because he was the one burning people out while he was there living out his hobbies.

AyanamiKaine 8 hours ago||
I sometimes think about the same. Its a sad truth that if you bad days those days may be at the worst moment. Sleep definitly helps for a good mind but also exercise!
todotask2 5 hours ago||
A good night's sleep is no longer an option for me. My area is experiencing widespread, constant ground vibrations throughout the day and night. It feels as if your whole body is vibrating. No supplement can help with that, and there's nothing the local authorities can do until the major construction projects are completed over the next few years.
nextaccountic 5 hours ago||
I wonder if having springs in the bed legs would help to damp vibrations. Or.. something like that

https://engineering.stackexchange.com/questions/42284/vibrat...

https://www.bolonhome.com/news/bed-frame-vibration-control-d...

I remember a Youtube video about a story of a skyscrapper that added something to damp vibrations so that it would be more comfortable due to high winds or something like that. If it's feasible to damp vibrations on a whole building, you can do it on a smaller scale as well

mannanj 5 hours ago||
I'm so sorry. This sounds horrible. Have you local elected officials or the contractors been made aware of this and are willing to do anything about it? Even help sound proof windows, outdoor areas, etc.

I think this kind of behavior by the groups causing this impact on you is irresponsible and harmful, even if it's not known. If they know I think they are being unethical - I think its fair if they suffer harm and damage as a result such as in court or you similarly start to coordinate a group of people that can make their jobs harder as well through legal means of course.

Maybe ya'll stand outside their work and speak with megaphones for as long as possible, or just stream a speaker blasting audio towards them as they work.

shykes 9 hours ago||
Well, I'm screwed...
acron0 9 hours ago||
My thought exactly. For people who struggle with this, and conventional wisdom doesn't seem to stick, what are we supposed to do?
estearum 9 hours ago|||
Lifelong severe insomniac (sleep onset mostly) and cured myself pretty much entirely over the last year or so. My suggestions in order of what I perceived to be their cost vs effectiveness ratio:

1. The Sleep With Me podcast, especially if you struggle with racing thoughts (if you have a partner who can't stand hearing this, the Ozlo Sleepbuds are a good if imperfect solution)

2. Stellar Sleep, an app that delivers CBT-I, evidence-backed cognitive therapy for insomnia; this reset my sleep clock in about two months, which is now maintained by the other items on this list

3. Eight Sleep mattress pad to keep temperature low during sleep, especially on warmer nights

4. Manta Sleep Mask to get full light blackout

Also I've definitely just doxxed myself. But worth it to help some fellow insomniacs!

martingoodson 9 hours ago||||
Don't watch any kind of screen in the evening. Read a book instead. You'll fall asleep sooner.
ptsneves 8 hours ago|||
With this [0] I find i read 2 pages and I fall asleep consistently and really with a will to sleep. My mind wanders into far away lands and empires and says, "I take it from here".

[0] https://www.amazon.com/dp/0691134952

n4r9 9 hours ago||||
Isn't that "conventional wisdom"?
soco 9 hours ago|||
I do watch screens in the morning, but reading in bed (though still a screen, Kindle) still knocks me off in max 15 minutes. I would love to know why... I only know it works.
dkga 9 hours ago||
Could be related to the light spectrum. Kindles aren't really "screen" like the others; they do have background light but you can turn it off and use it with its paper-like screen (which is what I do and really like it). But traditional screens have blue light as part of the normal light they emit, which is known to disrupt sleeping patterns. When I am using my cell phone or computer right before sleeping, I usually turn on colour filtering to make my whole cell phone be tinted red. This helps wonders. I found this page that explains how this can be done: [0].

[0]: https://ios.gadgethacks.com/how-to/keep-your-night-vision-sh...

ostwilkens 9 hours ago||||
The only thing that worked for me was having a kid. He wakes up early every day, so I have no choice. Taking care of him is so taxing, being sleep deprived isn't on the table.
n4r9 9 hours ago||
What's more, you have little difficulty falling asleep any time, any place!
D13Fd 9 hours ago||||
Did you cut out all caffeine?
Retr0id 9 hours ago||
> conventional wisdom doesn't seem to stick
derektank 8 hours ago|||
I wouldn’t say cutting out all caffeine is conventional wisdom. Every sleep specialist (sample size of 3) I have spoken to has basically said, while they don't recommend caffeine, if you only drink it early in the day it’s probably fine.
D13Fd 8 hours ago|||
I’m asking a question to determine his view of “conventional wisdom,” which could be all kinds of things. Why would you assume that his view of “conventional wisdom” necessarily includes cutting all caffeine?
ozgrakkurt 9 hours ago||||
Conventional wisdom does work for me but it is immensely difficult. I would say take the advice seriously but don't take the timeframe or problem difficulty assesment coming from other people.

It is only natural that it takes months to years to fix a problem if you had the problem for years.

clouedoc 9 hours ago||||
Let's create a Discord/Signal/WhatsApp/mailing list group to help each other figure it out... it's time to end our sleep irregularity once and for all!
Zababa 9 hours ago||||
Hard to answer precisely without knowing what conventional wisdom didn't stick.

The common levers I know and that worked at least a bit for me:

- start by having a fixed waking time, and get sunlight or bright light quickly after waking up. Normally relatively fixed sleep time is supposed to follow. For me waking up is the easy part, transforming that into getting up and going outside is harder. Another option here is a strong (like, really strong) lamp on a timer, or letting the morning light in your bedroom (this one is usually not recommended I think, most people seem to be blackout curtains style, but for me it gave me a nice 6am waking time with good sleep last summer).

- melatonin. Two main ways: using it as a kind of hypnotic, so ~30 minutes before sleep, experimenting with 0.3mg to ~2mg doses ; then using it as a circadian regulator, this is a good resource https://lorienpsych.com/2020/12/20/melatonin/, search for "TO TREAT" in the page.

- app timers, for me it was mostly no twitter and no youtube, or a very low time for each.

- light, ie reduc light before sleeping. Not just blue light and not just screens, if I'm on my phone in bed I'll reduce the luminosity a lot, same with computer, same with e-reader. I also try to avoid using too much the lights in my room. More light tend to make me feel more "wired" and less ready to sleep.

- "meditation" to cut rumination, by which I mean "lay down in my bed, gently try to find sensations in the body and to stay focused on them, by gently I mean it's a very low stakes game where the goal is to find sensations in the body and give them attention, but losing focus for a while is not a big deal".

- shower in the evening, as I don't like feeling dirty when I am in my bed, but also not just before bed as sometimes I don't really want to go take a shower and this delays my bedtime

- clean bedsheets, bedroom, stuff in/on your bed

- AC in the summer, I wouldn't be able to sleep properly without it

- sleeping mask. It helps going to sleep, but it falls of my head every night so it doesn't prevent waking up with light too.

- making getting good sleep the priority of the evening. This is easy/possible for me due to my circumstances (ie low responsibilities in the evening). The way I do it is that unless something is actually important, what I'm trying to accomplish in the evening is prepare myself for sleep and get good sleep. This can look like not starting a movie at 11pm, not booting up games, not eating a super heavy meal, not drinking too much water after 6pm to avoid waking up to pee, if I have things I want to do try to do them early so they're done earlier, move some stuff I want to do every day like spaced repetition in the morning.

Schiendelman 8 hours ago||
"If I'm on my phone in bed" is throwing out a major, proven impactful piece of conventional wisdom.
Zababa 7 hours ago||
Yeah, in an ideal world where I'm the ideal me I wouldn't use my phone in my bed, but I haven't found a way to stop doing that which I can stick with, so I try to limit the damage.

Part of what I wanted to say is, there is conventional wisdom, then there is how you actually put that wisdom in practice in a way you stick with. I've struggled a lot with the implementation, but sometimes by throwing lots of stuff at the wall I find something that brings me halfway there. It's not the "golden way" but it leaves me in a better place than before, with a bit better sleep, a bit more self knowledge, and a small victory.

Schiendelman 4 hours ago||
That totally makes sense. Also, thanks for sharing your list! I'll see if I can try anything on it. :)
kakacik 7 hours ago|||
Exercise, often, not too hard, over short time you'll get your personal level better than any coach could do. It will also prolong your life easily by 10 years and add tons of quality into it, will make you happier and more connected to your own body. All people I know also corrected their eating habits aggressively, its all connected.

If you dont have enough time get to the point when you can do HIIT safely, its literally 15-20 min max. If you have time, add long walks on rest days for example, or whatever is available to you nearby (ie swimming/surf if usable water body nearby).

marknutter 3 hours ago|||
Try Trazadone. I've struggled with sleep my whole life and now, after 45 years, I can finally say I have the problem thoroughly licked.
csomar 9 hours ago|||
Are you? Would be happy to die by 65-70 instead of struggling through 80s…
al_borland 9 hours ago|||
No one knows for sure how they will be in their old age. My grandmother didn’t seem to struggle until her mid to late 90s. That’s a lot of years to leave on the table. Years that allowed her to meet and enjoy time with her children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren.

Had she died at 65, I wouldn’t have even known her. Instead she was around for my entire childhood and well into adulthood.

pferde 9 hours ago||||
I'd rather live through my 80s without much struggling. Longevity and quality of life until the end. And I try to live in the way that lends itself towards that.
suddenlybananas 9 hours ago|||
Easy to say when you're not 65-70.
TacticalCoder 9 hours ago||
If it's of any help to you: if TFA is true, I should be dead already. I've got the absolute most fucked up sleep schedule. Thankfully I've got a lovely wife who accepted it (to be honest as it's been like that since I was 20 y/o, she knew...).

To me burning the midnight oil is my way of life.

In a past life, two decades plus ago, I used to write books: I'd write at night, when all is quiet. I'd go buy two or three warm "croissant" at 6:30am when the shop would open, then I'd go to bed.

And I love the hours later at night that then becomes early in the morning to get work done.

Because I'm such a night owl (not to party nor drink at all), I've got a different view on, for example, city life. Or rural area life. Things are different in the middle of the night.

Last night I had something that needed solving: went to bed at 8am.

My wife shall never ever take an appointment for me in the morning.

If it's of any comfort to you, I'm still fit and made it to 53 y/o so far and my doctor laughs at me when I go see him, saying I'm totally fine.

Anyhow seeing the old wreck my fater is at 78 y/o, I kinda came to peace with the notion that it's okay'ish if I don't make it that far.

Those with fucked up sleep schedules: you're not alone.

P.S: if I wasn't such a night owl, I'd never have met my wife... Long story but the butterfly effect: 25 years ago, coming back from my editor (who was also a night own) at something like 3am I decided to stop at a club knew but to which I'd never been, for there was some forms of life still awake too. There I met a girl, which became my girlfriend for a while. I kept in touch with her and through her I met a friend: a crazy dude. And through that crazy dude I met my wife. So had I not decided to stop at 3am at that club, I'd never have met my wife. So there's that.

AbstractH24 6 hours ago||
I have epilpsy, with an implanted device that both acts like a pacemaker and records my brainwaves.

Basically my doctor's biggest concern right now is making sure I don't die in my sleep because of something the device records that I and my wife never even know happened. Its a point of debate right now how much to disrupt my life with side-effects to do that.

keeda 2 hours ago||
Somewhat related, I once met the author of a book about sleep [1] and asked about my specific case. At that time I was splitting half my time across two continents 10 time zones apart but working largely in the same timezone, about 2 - 3 months at a time. That is, every 2 - 3 months I switched from a 1st shift sleep schedule to a "2.5th shift" one. So I asked him how bad that was for my health.

He said that as long as people are mostly regular in their sleep hours, the actual timings don't matter much. However, extended periods of irregular sleep schedules are actually (his words) "classified as a type of carcinogen."

I briefly looked into the evidence at the time but did not find it very concerning. TFA does make a more compelling case by linking it to all-cause mortality.

[1] I believe it was The Sleep Solution by M. Chris Winter, though I may be wrong. I can only remember it had a blue cover, but turns out pretty much ALL books about sleep have a blue cover. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

kilroy123 6 hours ago|
The only thing that has worked for me to keep my sleep regular is to go outside first thing in the morning and sit for 15-20 minutes. Rain or shine. Even if it's cold or cloudy.

This has been game changing and keeps me on a regular sleep routine.

lanfeust6 5 hours ago|
Seconding that the time you get up, and light exposure then and during the day, has a massive impact. If you habitually sleep in late, then "going to bed early" does not work as you'll lack sleep pressure. It's putting the cart before the horse. You have to treat it the same way we do jet lag; when we travel to the other side of the world, we adjust by just gritting through the morning. Takes few days to shift.
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