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Posted by hermanzegerman 7 hours ago

OpenAI loses trademark dispute at EU court(dpa-international.com)
189 points | 127 commentspage 2
miroljub 6 hours ago|
They should just rename it to ClosedAI.

It would be more honest to their customers and better show who they are and what they stand for.

echoangle 4 hours ago|
If OpenAI is rejected, that would be rejected too…
Oarch 3 hours ago||
HopingAI seems more pertinent
Dwedit 4 hours ago||
I wonder how that trademark logic would apply to something like OpenGL.
josefx 2 hours ago|
At least the GL part isn't something that has a widely understood meaning and I don't think any of the competing APIs are generally refered to as Graphics Libraries either.
siva7 3 hours ago||
god thanks ClosedAI is still available
GuestFAUniverse 3 hours ago||
Trump administration intervening in ... 1... 2... 3...
krembo 5 hours ago||
Weird decision, if so I wonder what would they say about other trademarks like Apple..
sebastiennight 5 hours ago||
Apple is a valid trademark in the "computers" category, but would not be accepted in the "food" category.

Here are the 13 valid trademarks in France containing the word "apple" in the same category as fruit: https://data.inpi.fr/search?advancedSearch=%257B%2522checkbo...

None of them are descriptive of the actual fruit.

"Apples in the Sky" is a valid trademark only because apples in the sky do not exist. If there was a strange meteorobiological event where such fruit started to grow in the clouds, this would no longer be a valid trademark for someone to create, because it would be descriptive of a category of things in the real world.

realo 4 hours ago|||
What about "Savoury apple" ?
sebastiennight 4 hours ago|||
Is that a category of things that exist?
bonesss 2 hours ago|||
“Free Apples”
LocalH 3 hours ago|||
Waiting for Apple to enter the food industry, with a highly specific McIntosh-based genetic lineage that they dub the "iApple".
LocalH 3 hours ago|||
I don't like the idea of trademarks that are so well-known that they apply in all fields. That doesn't serve the public. Companies that well-known can easily apply for a trademark across multiple fields. The trademark owners that would really need that kind of help are the smaller ones that aren't eligible for that, and must specifically register in various fields of industry.

IP law needs severe reform no matter which jurisdiction you're in (since the majority of the world signed the Berne Convention, the same reforms are needed everywhere)

murderfs 1 hour ago||
But what's the alternative for the trademarks that are truly universally known? Does it serve the public for me to be able to sell unauthorized Coca-Cola brand products, or more likely, the trademark owner selling a token item in each category to maintain the right to prevent others from using it?
freejazz 4 hours ago||
Hard to make it clearer that you didn't read/understand the decision than a post like this
wtfidunno 2 hours ago||
[dead]
gregman1 6 hours ago||
Touché
jmole 6 hours ago||
This seems like a bad decision to me that will ultimately harm consumers, if anyone can launch a product and say it’s made by “OpenAI”.
VorpalWay 6 hours ago||
Well, they could have used a less generic and misleading name (it is not very open, as noted in the article). OpenAI only really have themselves to blame here.
Legend2440 5 hours ago|||
Plenty of companies use generic words for their name, and they still get trademarks.

American Airlines for example is indeed just an American airline. The Container Store, Vision Center, General Motors, International business machines (IBM), the list goes on.

Even Microsoft is just a contraction of their original product, microcomputer software.

DrammBA 5 hours ago|||
I understood it more in the line of preventing a company from naming itself "Low sugar" and then blocking other companies from adding the words "Low sugar" to their packaging. Same thing with OpenAI, another company should be free to create an AI that's fully open and tag it as "Open AI" without fearing legal problems with OpenAI.
raverbashing 5 hours ago||||
> Even Microsoft is just a contraction of their original product, microcomputer software.

Hopefully that was also a family suggestion because I can't think of a more sloppy name than "Microcomputer software"

literalAardvark 5 hours ago|||
In the US
Legend2440 5 hours ago||
Many of these companies have EU trademarks as well.
slibhb 5 hours ago|||
Give me a break. Apple doesn't sell apples.
n6242 5 hours ago|||
Exactly. Apple can register Apple because they don't sell apples so it's not misleading. OpenAI can't register OpenAI because they make ai but it's not open. They could call themselves Peaches, OpenWombat or ClosedAI and there wouldn't be any issues because those wouldn't be misleading.
sebastiennight 5 hours ago|||
> OpenAI can't register OpenAI because they make ai but it's not open

That's not the reason they can't. They can't register the trademark because it's a descriptive one.

If I try to trademark "hacker forum", an EU trademark officer will reject it not because my website doesn't have hackers on it, but because it's descriptive and prevents others from starting hacker forums.

So

> They could call themselves... ClosedAI

is also incorrect, because it's descriptive as well.

Legend2440 5 hours ago||||
>OpenAI can't register OpenAI because they make ai but it's not open.

Not the issue. Per the ruling even if their AI was open they still couldn't have the trademark.

burntalmonds 5 hours ago||||
Open could mean open to integration (API), or opens your mind, or opens possibilities.
slibhb 5 hours ago||||
No, the opinion doesn't have to do with whether OpenAI is open.
helsinkiandrew 5 hours ago|||
[dead]
lokar 5 hours ago||||
Do they have a trademark on the word apple with no other context? I thought it was Apple computer, which is distinct.
VorpalWay 2 hours ago||
Apple is also a record label (that existed before the computer company), specifically one owned by the Beatles.

There were even some legal battles between them, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Corps_v_Apple_Computer

Apparently it ended with Apple Computers buying the trademark from Apple (record company) and then licencing it back (weird but ok).

kps 1 hour ago||
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sosumi
freejazz 4 hours ago|||
It's like you are starting to get it.
NBJack 5 hours ago|||
You know, if it was someone offering a truly open (weights + training data) and available model running on consumer hardware in a privacy sandbox, I would welcome that "harm".
Legend2440 5 hours ago||
It's not going to be something like that. Anyone legitimate is going to want to use a different name because of the confusion.

The only people naming something "OpenAI" are going to be trying to trick you into downloading their scammy chatGPT clone.

TazeTSchnitzel 6 hours ago|||
OpenAI would probably still have some kind of claim against a company that did that.
Symbiote 5 hours ago||
No, at least not in the EU. That's the meaning of this decision.
7bit 6 hours ago||
"It will harm consumers"

Ah yes, chosing a name that transports openness and transparency when the opposite is the case, and complaining about not being able to register that name as a trademark, which will cause financial harm the said company -- but somehow there's still people to spin it the other way around so it harms consumers now, therefore it was a bad decision.

That's the definition of anti-consumer behavior

Legend2440 5 hours ago||
You just don't like OpenAI and are for anything that hurts them, without thinking through the consequences.

What will harm consumers is the scammy "OpenAI" chat app that I can now legally upload to app stores in the EU, in hopes of tricking people into thinking it's a genuine app.

saghm 2 hours ago|||
It seems pretty dubious that there are a lot of people who know the name of the company behind ChatGPT but not able to recognize that the name of their chat isn't "OpenAI chat"
7bit 5 hours ago|||
I use OpenAI. I just am against anti-consumer behaviour
GuB-42 5 hours ago||
As much as I hate OpenAI for hijacking the term "open", and I love the idea of OpenAI losing, I am not sure if I agree with it.

Trademarks are first intended to protect consumers, so that if it says Coca Cola, then the Coca Cola company made it, for the better of for the worse, but at least you know.

OpenAI is already a well known name in Europe, and when I see OpenAI on a product, I expect it to be a product of that company. It doesn't mean I will want to use it, I may even want to avoid it, but I don't want it to be from someone else. By denying that trademark, anyone could call their product OpenAI, and I don't think that situation would benefit the consumer.

wsng 4 hours ago||
As explained in the judgement, being well-known is irrelevant. This is not about consumer protection, but about brand protection.

You are right that the decision has the potential to confuse consumers. However, that is on Open AI, they should have consulted trademark lawyers earlier, and should have rebranded after shifting from open AI to commercial AI.

GuB-42 4 hours ago||
I trust the judges on that one, they know the law better than I do, obviously.

I am also not discussing about who is at fault, I agree that it is on OpenAI.

I just don't want, say, some company that is even shadier than OpenAI to launch an OpenAI branded protect with the intention to mislead people.

Maybe grant OpenAI the trademark, but do not allow them to use it on products that are not actually open, but I guess it is legally problematic.

Hamuko 5 hours ago|||
>OpenAI is already a well known name in Europe

Are there brand awareness surveys that back that up?

nottorp 5 hours ago||
> Trademarks are first intended to protect consumers

Huh? I thought they're intended to protect "innovation".

tsimionescu 4 hours ago|||
No, they are very much not. That's the supposed benefit of patents and/or copyright. Trademarks are for ensuring there is no consumer confusion about which company they are trading with.
GuB-42 4 hours ago||||
I think you are confusing trademarks with patents.

Trademarks don't prevent you from copying anything, they only prevent you from being misleading regarding the origin.

echoangle 4 hours ago|||
I think patents are for innovation and trademarks are to make sure that people can reliably know who they’re dealing with.
joshuat 6 hours ago|
This feels like a slight misstep that could result in consumer harm. The name is incredibly vague, without doubt, but to claim "OpenAI" doesn't evoke a very specific company at this point in the minds of consumers seems myopic.
thewebguyd 5 hours ago||
Whether it evokes a specific company now isn't relevant to the ruling. The trademark was refused, and this was a challenge to that initial refusal, and the refusal was upheld.

I somewhat agree with the EU here. It's far too generic, "Open" and "AI." To grant the trademark would mean any AI product that actually IS open, or open source, etc. cannot say they are "Open AI" which IMO would be a problem.

Where I might disagree with the ruling is spacing vs. no spacing. I'd have granted them the trademark on specifically "openai" as a single word but not "Open AI". Let's them defend their name against anyone else calling themselves "OpenAI" but not any other product advertising itself as "Open" "AI".

joshuat 5 hours ago||
I completely agree with your last point. They shouldn't have ownership of "Open" in relation to "AI" broadly speaking, but their company name "OpenAI" should be protected.

Entirely possible, seeming more likely, that I didn't have enough background information on the short article.

Ensorceled 5 hours ago|||
The EU shouldn't be held to bad decisions made by the US trademark office.
7bit 6 hours ago||
Ah yes, classic max capitalism take