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Posted by apsec112 4 hours ago

Why I Left Google DeepMind(turntrout.com)
263 points | 139 commentspage 3
nicechianti 3 hours ago|
[dead]
aew2120 4 hours ago||
tldr: scientist discovers reality
smallmancontrov 3 hours ago||
If half of us were half as principled as this guy, the world would be a much better place.
busterarm 3 hours ago||
No, they would just walked all over by the 2% who have no principles whatsoever. Kind of like what's happening already.

Principles are only good up until they enable you to be systematically victimized.

scoring1774 1 hour ago|||
I sometimes think this way but I do wonder whether this would be true in a world where individuals demand more control over the impacts of their work. It seems that the current problem is that the labor of the 98% (or whatever number you like) is well-aligned with the demands of the 2% without principles who seem to have a strong propensity to end up in leadership positions. It reminds me of the simulations people run where in a high-trust world scammers do well, while in a low-trust world they die off only to then lead to a new high-trust world.

If enough people make decisions like OP and only perform work that they believe in (for one reason or another) perhaps that redirects the path to power for the 2% such that they need to act in the interests of the 98% rather than the other way around. I think OP was very late to the train here and I had made a similar career switch in the past for similar reasons but I'm happy to see other people making decisions that, if nothing else, will make them feel that they are in control of the impacts of their time and hard-work. Not sure how things will balance out in the end/distant future but we do our best and try to lead a life we feel good about living.

titularcomment 3 hours ago|||
Don't play fair in a game others cheat.
wiz21c 3 hours ago||
tldr: scientist tell us that defending one's values needs courage and strong will.
Chance-Device 4 hours ago||
[flagged]
questionableans 3 hours ago||
It’s because the way it’s being done in the US is unnecessarily brutal and arbitrarily discriminates more against people from certain countries.
mantas 3 hours ago||
Vast majority of people against it seem to be against the principle, not against the implementation.
tomrod 3 hours ago||
People tend to agree that immigration enforcement can be necessary (except for that pocket of philosophical bohemians that accept that people should be able to flow as free or freer than capital if we are truly free at all). But interestingly, most people feel immigrants that did not enter through legal means should be able to stay in a lot of circumstances!

People almost universally agree that stripping citizenship from naturalized citizens is way too far (no cite here, just recalling a recent read).

[0] https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/11/22/most-amer...

questionableans 3 hours ago||
There is something fishy about where someone happened to be born (or looks/sounds like they’re from), where they are, and the relationships between different government blowhards having a bigger impact on their life than just being a decent person trying to get by.
tomrod 3 hours ago||
Yeah, but part of that is that national sovereignty is a just-so-happens meme of an idea that sticks around because we all agree that it should and alternative arrangements could be worse.

On the other hand, people dying is a real concept. Their deaths because some people think that other people shouldn't be around and appealing to national sovereignty to enforce that is a leap into the absurd.

At the end of the day, societal institutions exist because we choose by action and by decision to support them. If they aren't supported, the world and the trust network become dramatically reduced in size.

questionableans 3 hours ago||
What a mess.
tomrod 3 hours ago||
Aye. I find it reasonable to reduce it to: if people are dying that shouldn't be killed, time to question how we got there.
jpitz 3 hours ago|||
Immigration enforcement doesn't sound controversial, but murder should.
tomrod 4 hours ago|||
I think you might be accidentally or willingly misunderstanding the context if that is your takeaway -- no one, neither immigrant nor innocent bystander, should be killed because administrative warrants are being enforced. And ICE doesn't require hundreds of individuals deployed to one place. There simply was never a reason for such a surge.

EDIT: to the dead comment below -- your comment doesn't have to meet my approval -- the comment is simply at odds with reality and is a thought terminating cliche.

Feel free to take it in a more general framing: if you don't want people you don't support, while they are in power, killing people, take time to understand why others might be upset. Not only is it your civic duty, its also part of being in society.

fastball 3 hours ago|||
Is the idea that with worse technology, DHS will kill fewer people?
tomrod 3 hours ago||
Is it binary? I don't think the technology is the core issue, the concern is over the people enforcing and the policies governing their actions -- the technology becomes a flashpoint when the prior two are issues. Scaling bad actions and actors even though the tech itself is neutral.

TFA's point is really getting at that -- who is accountable for scaling bad actions and actors?

fastball 1 hour ago||
But the scaling needs to be relevant to the actual actions you are concerned about.

It's a stretch that any software Google/DeepMind/etc is selling to DHS is allowing / helping them to scale the murder part of their operations.

In fact, usually software translates to "less boots on the ground" which one could then assume would decrease the number of encounters like those highlighted in the article.

Chance-Device 3 hours ago||||
What would you do instead?
tomrod 3 hours ago||
Honestly? A few ideas

1. US aid abroad to help stem the conditions that drive many of the migrants to flee their homes. Build up institutions, enforcement, and anti-corruption frameworks so these nations can better build themselves. I'd even be open to hawkish approaches -- frankly it's been surprisingly to see the positive responses to Venezuelan interference by the US.

2. Immigration enforcement needs use-of-force accountability and less lethal approaches. The specific clashes between protesters and ICE come from actions that appear practically designed to encourage confrontation. Agents that kill innocent people should also be held accountable, meaning civil liability reform is necessary.

3. Ensuring we have a shared reality -- hold organizations accountable when they lie or disinform. Example - the majority of immigrants aren't actually criminals, nor are they "stealing jobs" in any coherent way -- studies show that many immigration policies have been net positive on communities. So when Fox News or similar organizations bring up random anti-immigrant commentary, dressed as news instead of entertainment, there really should be consequences for misinforming.

4. Targeted investigations instead of street sweeps. While Kavanaugh stops may be legal, like many enforcement policies over the years they are less effective unless the goal is "enforce stereotypes broadly."

Chance-Device 3 hours ago||
I mean, you have an immigration policy or you don’t have one. If you have one, you need to enforce it. The unfortunate truth is that any attempt at law enforcement sometimes leads to deaths, and it doesn’t matter what you’re enforcing. The US should not have responsibility to solve all of the rest of the world’s problems to justify enforcing it’s borders.
questionableans 3 hours ago|||
Third option: realize the effect of the policy is undesirable and change it.
tomrod 3 hours ago|||
[flagged]
loeg 3 hours ago||||
[flagged]
tomrod 3 hours ago||
This is false.

> Good was in her car, stopped sideways in the street, which led Ross to circle her vehicle on foot. Other agents approached, and one ordered her to get out of the car while reaching through her open window. Good briefly reversed, then began moving forward and to the right, into the direction of traffic. At this point, Ross was standing several feet away at the front-left of the vehicle which was turning away, when he fired three shots, killing her.

[0] https://www.mprnews.org/story/2026/01/08/questions-follow-af...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Ren%C3%A9e_Good

loeg 3 hours ago||
> Good briefly reversed, then began moving forward

No one disputes this. She and the others were deliberately antagonizing agents first. They were not random innocent third parties. She deliberately ignored the lawful orders of armed officers and drove towards them. In almost any other situation involving police, no one would be surprised if this happened.

questionableans 3 hours ago|||
Real police are trained not to stand in front of or reach into vehicles.
tomrod 3 hours ago|||
Reading comprehension is critical to ensure you don't ignore the whole picture, which you are doing.

> began moving forward and to the right, into the direction of traffic

You can watch the videos from neutral sources if you're concerned. There was no one in her way.

Chance-Device 3 hours ago||||
[flagged]
tomrod 3 hours ago||
Perhaps it would be helpful to understand that people feel it necessary to flag the comment -- I tried to explain it in my parent comment here.
Chance-Device 3 hours ago||
It’s not necessary at all, it’s grassroots ideological censorship.
Chance-Device 3 hours ago|||
[flagged]
wilg 3 hours ago||
Well one way you can understand why the poster finds it controversial would be to read it before commenting.
mantas 3 hours ago||
[flagged]
spwa4 4 hours ago||
I mean, on the one hand, I support this. But this is going pretty far. When it comes to non-US police and military, if your threshold is killing 2 innocents (and the officers getting away with it), then you can't do business almost anywhere ...

With essentially any country, and even vaguely similar circumstances

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/05/belgian-police...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/20/belgian-police...

And this is just a random example country (with excellent beer), you will find worse than this in most/all European countries, especially in the last 10 years or so.

jmcgough 3 hours ago||
This is pretty different - in both of those, the officer faced consequences. Unidentified masked ICE officers have killed about a person a month with no consequences, many times over a civil concern (immigration status) or just getting annoyed with protesters who broke no laws. ICE is effectively a lethal extrajudicial force with no means of seeking accountability when they kill.

On top of that, they are acting aggressively and violently in broad daylight solely to terrorize immigrant communities. The chilling effect is very visible in hospital systems right now - I have seen far less Hispanics in the hospital for medical emergencies, and that includes people who are in this country legally.

wiz21c 4 hours ago|||
IOW: "if I have to kill only 2-3 people to make the business I want to make, then, bah, so be it".
andriy_koval 3 hours ago||
its more like: good luck finding clients who don't kill anyone somewhere deep inside their supply chain.
khalic 3 hours ago|||
What a dishonest mischaracterization of the issue at hand, shame on you
boston_clone 3 hours ago||
your straw man is misrepresenting the scale of violence ICE has inflicted on communities across the country. the article states it was after Alex Pirettis death that he was inspired to act. ICE has killed many people across the country during activities which they have no business conducting. A man in Houston was killed last week, then days later, another in Maine. They’ve shot citizens and fabricated evidence to cover up their actions in multiple instances.

Wake the fuck up and stop trying to whatabout your way to a more comfortable mental state.

andriy_koval 3 hours ago||
> They’ve shot citizens and fabricated evidence to cover up their actions in multiple instances.

typical police activity protected by impunity in this country.

boston_clone 3 hours ago||
i don’t think statements like this help reinforce how serious the situation is; rather, it subtly normalizes it.
andriy_koval 3 hours ago||
Normal/not normal is a matter of opinion.

It sounds like it is normal for majority of political elite as well as voters, since this is not top of political agenda in this country.

It is not normal from my point of view, but I am not sure what can I do about this.

boston_clone 3 hours ago||
at a micro/personal level, absolutely keep having the tough conversation that it’s not okay if the topics arise in your circles. encourage others to reflect on the issue more if they seem apathetic, and paint various pictures to help folks overcome their own biases.

conjuring empathy in others is not easy, but it is worth it.

inamiyar 3 hours ago||
This is a long post about someone who has very obviously just gotten into politics. It is good for people to try and see how to impart change. Here are some constructive critical questions for the author:

1. Why no mention of No Tech For Apartheid or Google Workers United, who have been doing similar work for years?

2. What about all of the other police, DHS, and military contracts Google has been a part of? Did this problem really just start with the second (not even the first!) Trump presidency?

3. What does a focus on exclusively those at the top levels of a hierarchy, with minimal focus on incentive structures and wider systems, say about your theory of change? Was there a power analysis done, or was it assumed that "big title" = "powerful"?

Side Note: Incredibly insulting of James Dean to say email 3 CEOs.

OsrsNeedsf2P 3 hours ago||
I don't hold it against people for only caring about one or two issues. In addition to many plausible explanations, people like OP who take a stand are already doing so much.
cryzinger 3 hours ago|||
I for sure agree about encouraging people to dig deeper and wider, and that absolutely none of this is new or is occurring in a vacuum, but (and I don't say this to single you out, this is just a long-held feeling I've had) I do also think it's important to encourage and commend anyone who reaches these conclusions, however late or nascent they might be. Especially someone with the backbone to speak out at and then quit a cushy, prestigious job.

Something something every journey, something something single step. For the author (and for all of us, really) I hope it's one of many. And I think they should be proud of this particular step :)

sfink 2 hours ago||
The main answer would probably be: because he worked for Google Deep Mind as opposed to Google in general, so the killerbot and mass profiling concerns were immediately relevant to him and his work.

Your comment seems to be whataboutism. The article was not an essay trying to prove that he knows the secret to being maximally effective at politics, or whatever it seems you were expecting?

amazingamazing 3 hours ago|
It is honorable but ultimately hasn’t democracy spoken wrt the issues mentioned in the post?

For better or worse millions of Americans voted for the guy doing the deportations.

I also find it difficult to reconcile not using AI for weapons. If war is inevitable AI presumably would at least ensure you are on target.

metalsiliconYT 3 hours ago||
Agreed, I feel like the people who say no to AI weapons haven't actually presented a real argument (that I have heard) besides terminator bad
ryandrake 3 hours ago|||
Regardless of whether AI is involved, many people simply don't want to work on weapons systems, or on non-weapons technologies that are intended to become part of a weapons system.
metalsiliconYT 3 hours ago||
Thats fine, but a serious luxury belief IMO
watwut 2 hours ago||
Not really, it is fairly common belief. And American war system is not in the pro-democracy, defense only or whatever else business anyway. It is in pro-warcrime, pro-stupid-wars, pro-dictators business.
tediousgraffit1 3 hours ago|||
I think there's some nuance here that a lot of these convos dont make plain - are we talking about just using 'ai' in the military broadly, or are we specifically talking about fully autonomous weapons systems?

In the former case, I would agree with you completely, I havent heard any arguments beyond 'I dont like working on military stuff'. But if we're talking fully autonomous weapons, that's a different story. And further muddying the waters is the fact that the former is obviously a step along the path to the latter.

slowin 3 hours ago|||
AI helps people scale. If being "on target" means that you find people when they're eating dinner so you can kill their entire family, then using AI to scale that up is a terrible thing. That's exactly what Israel did with Lavender. They literally had a kill list called "Where's daddy?".

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39918245

amazingamazing 3 hours ago||
As opposed to what though? Again, I assert violence is inevitable.
slowin 3 hours ago||
AI is the end of the funnel and I actually think the mass surveillance at the beginning of the funnel is a bigger issue. The concentration of power is the problem. If you or I could defend ourselves against state level actors with AI weapons, then they would be a good thing (imho). AI and mass surveillance at the state level create a power imbalance that is a major threat to human rights and should be resisted as much as possible.
scarecrowbob 2 hours ago|||
When folks who live around me vote for things I find unethical, then I don't feel bound by those decisions.

Also, your position on weapons development is premised on the idea that at lease some of the folks developing the weapons are on your side and always will be.

That might not be true at all.

sfink 2 hours ago|||
> For better or worse millions of Americans voted for the guy doing the deportations.

Uh, the idea of democracy is not that voting reveals universal preferences or something. It is ok to disagree with whoever gets elected, and continue working towards an alternative you believe to be better. In fact, democracy depends on that; otherwise, why not have a single election with no term limits? There is supposed to be ongoing difference of opinion.

> I also find it difficult to reconcile not using AI for weapons.

You can't reduce "AI for autonomous lethal weapons" to "AI for weapons".

watwut 2 hours ago|||
This idea that once a party gain a little more votes, people who oppose it should cease to exist and cease push for own values ... somehow applies only to the right.

When center or left wins, somehow, magically, same logic dont apply.

amazingamazing 1 hour ago||
What a weird strawman
Chance-Device 3 hours ago||
It does appear to be anti-democratic given everyone knew Trump’s platform when he was voted in. However the great unifying fact of politics is that everyone only really believes in democracy when they win.