Posted by rellem 6 hours ago
The frontier models are an edge and a liability. They're astronomically expensive to train. Without them, their models will fade into obscurity. Their marketing depends on people believing the models are meaningfully different, as people have sweatily argued on this forum. Personally, I'm not convinced there's much of a difference between these models at this point. The harness is what takes these random and hallucinogenic models and make them into something deterministic and useful.
1. If market conditions change they might decide to close down like Meta did.
2. If as you said models keep getting more expensive to train, is an open weights strategy financially sustainable?
edit: typo
China absolutely does not have my best interests at heart, but America's technofascism is probably more immediately dangerous and harmful. Americans genuinely have more to fear from America than China at this point.
The point they were making was that the most successful open models- those coming out of China- are made my companies that are using those open models to get exposure in Western markets. The goal is to undercut the Western dominant players, not out of any particular "open source" philosophy, so it wouldn't be wise to expect them to continue providing open models long term.
Fascism was laid out by Mussolini in the 1920s - it amounts to the idolatry of the state.
"All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state." B Mussolini
Also defined as Corporatism: the union of state and corporate power.
Which country do you think is closer to Mussolini's model ?
It’s no wonder than Thiel & co. are rediscovering Futurism, and blind faith in the machine is basically what Silicon Valley is all about.
But efficiencies aside; creation of open models still requires a lot of money and compute from a large organisation which is willing to accept zero return for that spend. This largesse is unlikely to continue forever; so the question is which will crack first, the frontier models’ business model or the fast followers’ generosity?
Seemed believable but not sure where that's true
Chinese AI companies are generally smaller tho and the models they're releasing are also smaller (I think estimates put OpenAI and Anthropic SOTA into trillions of parameters)
These two types of contributions have very different behavioral profiles, and it doesn't obviously follow that the historical success of getting people to collaborate socially on building software for fun and for the benefit of the community will translate in any meaningful way to the necessity of being able to raise enormous amounts of money to pay for enormous amounts of electricity.
Your idealistic of open source may require that, but in practice a huge part of open source is commercial and a large chunk of that is low on collaboration (across vendor boundaries).
Valve and SteamOS are a good example of what this idea looks like in practice. (Though they may also illustrate a third thing you need: a privately-run company, that has enough profit, and enough commitment from leadership to the company's vision, that they can make long-term bets without having to eventually bow to investors seeking short-term gains.)
This would be an argument for an organisation developing its own model; but not per se for releasing the weights openly.
The possible explanations (I'm aware of, which overlap somewhat) for spending large amounts of money on models then releasing them for free (i.e. the current Chinese approach) are soft power, marketing for a future paid model business (i.e. competing with the US models for customers and mindshare during the time you can't compete directly at the bleeding edge), and/or a geopolitical move to diminish the value of the US's frontier model companies.
The only thing that took us down a different path is the vast sums of VC funding pumped into the AI companies.
There's a reason we let companies specialize in some kind of service and buy it from them.
LLMs aren't looking like they'll be highly differentiated like software, so their market will probably be competitive. What negates the main reason Open Source software exists.
This leaves the price differential between a private third party and an internal initiative as barely more than the cost to train the model[1] - perhaps that's where we'll end up, a centrally trained model will represent an economy of scale that can leverage that difference into a margin it can profit off of but your business being purely profit driven by that training expenditure seems like a ridiculously thin margin.
So where does that leave the AI companies? If their LLMs are off the shelf-once built products they have a strong advantage for casual low usage but enterprise customers will have a huge cost incentive to roll their own - if the LLMs require continuous retraining and the frontier keeps moving then enterprise customers will find a packaged service more attractive and likely continue to subscribe for more accuracy but casual low usage will likely shift towards "good enough" models. It seems inevitable that they'll lose half the market and it seems difficult to discern their long term profitability[2].
1. Costs can, I think, reasonably be reduced to hardware depreciation and energy - if trends continue with cloud resource availability (it's possible this won't be the case if large compute providers start pulling resources offline to build a moat but I think they'd likely prefer the reliable compute income over model income which has several other competitive weaknesses). Hardware depreciation would normally be pretty negligible and equal across different training entities, right now we have a chip shortage but given the demand that can't last too long so I'd consider hardware to be fungible - and energy is entirely fungible - they're both hard to moat.
2. Outside of AGI, who knows if AGI will be or what even counts for it at this point - but I think if AGI isn't a doomsday scenario we fall back to one of the two above scenarios - either the frontier is ever moving and they can retain enterprise customers or the frontier seizes up and everyone can just use an off the shelf offering. In either scenario they don't have a lot of moat to deal with for their products unless they can restrict compute which is why Alphabet, AWS and MSFT are the only players I could see realistically coming out of this as an AI vendor winner and I'm not even certain if it'd be a good idea for them if it'd hamstring their cloud profitability.
Who had to leave to build anything.
But if they think it's important to their core business, corporations don't want to invest, they want to buy. Source: I used to be involved in corporate venture investing at a top 10 valley tech leader.
Historically speaking a lot of inventions have come about without things like VC investment. Either way, there’s probably little point in debating it, just because VC funded companies control the market now doesn’t mean they should indefinitely.
I seem to understand open models are mostly coming from China, and the benefit of training and releasing them for 'free' is a powerful geopolitical weapon against the Western/US economy that at this point depends on OpenAI & co. to succeed.
Will the West make open models illegal?
We better not.
> What is the financial incentive to do so?
If we'd been sharing all along (as we should have been), we probably would have gotten even further along in the development of the tech.
Think of everything we could do if every researcher on the planet had first class access to the frontier. No academic fallback models. No crude API access. No limits, but direct access to the weights and the ability to lobotomize, splice, and dice.
We could pour intelligence from one container to the next without paying a tax or wearing a blindfold. All without spilling a drop.
*Open* *Must* *Win*
Other countries in the westen hemisphere, probably not.
I agree that, currently, the Chinese govt is not only allowing but tacitly encouraging open weight model releases. However, I don't see it as an attack. I think it's more of a strategic delaying move to slow the revenue to frontier models while China works to catch up. This strategy will likely change over time.
> Will the West make open models illegal?
In the U.S. this seems highly unlikely due to the current administration's generally laissez-faire approach to tech as well as the U.S. constitution severely limiting the government's latitude to constrain economic activity.
As we saw with the temporary Mythos restriction, there are legal mechanisms to limit tech on certain grounds, but over time such limits are subject to close judicial and constitutional review. The Mythos embargo was also likely driven in part by the administration's anger at Anthropic for choosing to block the DoD from using their products for mass domestic surveillance and warfighting. I doubt we'll see any meaningful restrictions on OAI or other large companies. It'll be nearly 3 years before a different admin is in office and could enact serious limits and by then it will be too late for fundamental bans.
There are vested interests in most governments, such as intelligence agencies, law enforcement and the military, who would prefer to restrict some AI from broad use. As we saw with strong encryption, they'll only be able to delay and constrain, not stop, such a broadly useful dual-use tech. The geopolitical, economic, competitive and civil liberty interests are similar between strong encryption and AI, setting up a similar game theory dynamic. While it can be argued AI poses some potential danger, the specter of any such threat is abstract and not immediate.
On the other hand, the tech is obviously too economically essential and competitively vital to risk 'falling behind'. While there will certainly be attempts to ban, limit or constrain AI, the well-funded, highly organized commercial interests and civil libertarians will deploy lobbying, legal challenges and public opinion to ultimately prevail.
Aren't these the same guys who won't even let us have Chinese cars?
I'm not as confident as you that they will keep allowing us access to technology as strategic as AI models out of China and elsewhere that undercut US models in the market.
To everyone reading, download open models from anywhere as soon as they are released. You really have no guarantee at all that access to those models won't be cut off in the future with the stroke of a President's pen. Those downloads are your insurance policy. You'll always be able to access whatever you've already downloaded.
It has the feel of self-improving super-intelligence or bust to me. If you get that, the frontier model(s) run away with a faster exponential. It's a bit like semi with Moore's Law with silicon, GaAs could never catch up. If you don't get it, the fast followers crush the high investment and there's no moat. Not like they can enforce copyright!
The onlly way that happens is if America turns into zimbawe.
I've driven in a LOT of the USA. Sure Chicago, NYC, DC, LA, LV... They're all built up and feel modern.
Try driving anywhere in the Midwest outside of the big cities. Dilapidated carcas buildings everywhere. Urban and rural blight. Only jobs are low paying service work. Its bleak. Like, really bad poverty as a disease bleak.
And its crazy watching it too. They're ignorant (involuntatily), poor, and trapped. And democrats only seem to care about special interest of the week, so these areas vote republican.
I don't have a solution btw. Just something I've seen growing in the last 25 years. And its getting worse, not better.
When I was younger and it was a new thing it was quite a shock since American media obviously doesnt portray it that way. It is quite a contrast to even how the more run down parts of Canada look.
Great.
Yes, tinkerers and enthusiasts will continue to make use of them, but frontier companies will maintain near total dominance because they will be the only ones with access to the hardware.
Heck, most large enterprise moved to usage based billing and are still happily paying for it. They are force multipliers for your top talent, and when a top engineer is being paid $500k a year, doubling their output for $500/day is a no brainer.
Those things can all be done today on a $250 used video card and pennies of electricity
We're going to see Apple and Google compete over services and AI/OS integration instead, it will probably be years before your OEM takes local models seriously.
Running KIMI on a phone is not possible today and I agree with you that it will "probably be years before..." it is.
But how many years do you guess? I personally do not think it will take even 10 years for the situation to be commonplace.
I don't think we'll see home users being able to match even the low end clouds for a long time.
Longer term I think we'll see these uses of AI cluster into a few groups:
- maximal code / reasoning quality, at high prices (Fable)
- typical code / agents (sub-Opus, Terra)
- cheap but decent enough quality (think Deepseek / GLM / Luna)
- so cheap I don't care about utilization (Deepseek, and friends)
And also more niche ones:
- ultra fast with high quality answers (typically sub-SOTA). Cerebras / dedicated silicon type approaches, expensive.
- ultra fast with mostly-adequate answers, and an openness to retries, moving up to better models
I think the open models will dominate (not with individuals, but low cost providers) all except the top 1-2 of those categories, and there will be a continuous erosion on the big player's moats. The top categories are also where all the money is, but I'm not sure it can justify those investments long-term. I also think they will have to squeeze more money out of them to justify the investments, which will also drive people down the list.
Edit: clarifications.
But they're not. Meta, SpaceX, Microsoft, Amazon, they're all leasing out capacity to others. If they were truly constrained, we wouldn't see that happening.
I wouldn't rule out the possibility completely, but it won't be very common.
A better question is would you settle for o3 now or pay 20$ or 200$/month for fable ? Because o3 quality is available OSS.
It is like the new IPhone, in some sort. At some point come a feature many would like to have, despite diminishing returns.
We will see how long labs can keep up and what the scaling curve look like, but I would be more worried into losing sota status to Chinese companies than letting them take the open non-sota approach.
While the engineering team might need a cutting edge model (with the associated costs), the marketing department will be fine by something that can grammar correct or turn a few bullet points into prose. Likewise you already don't need Fable for Ticket -> RAG -> Reply with Faq knowledge or escalate workflows
That's already the case with other very expensive software like CAD packages were oftentimes you have different feature sets enabled for different employees.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure AI is going to go insular within the largest companies. This will only be hastened by the growing national security concerns/awareness.
Nvidia is looking like they are ditching consumer markets in favor of enterprise GPUs since nobodys heard a peep about the next iteration of RTX cards. The 60xx series is postponed till 2028.
Nvidias playing a dangerous gamble, in my eyes I see all the frontier labs eventually just only buying Nvidia chips for training and building custom ASICs for a fraction of the cost, longer lifespan and cheaper to host.
This will eat their 5 year gravy train for GPUs vs the 10 to 15 for ASICs.
1. it would put us (USA) at a competitive disadvantage, and cooler heads will prevail in this fight
2. there are good US open models. I have the latest gemma4:27b with better tool support functioning at a high level in the pi coding harness. Thinking Machines seems to be on a good path, we will see what they and other US companies can do.
It’s not hard to imagine what 5-10 years of pressure to increase RAM will do to specs, on top of the normal tech improvements.
That’s worth bearing in mind when thinking about local models.
Plus, local models keep getting better and better; 2 years ago what you could get out of those 48GB of RAM was embarrassing compared to what’s doable today.
We’re getting there. Just takes time.
Though on the level of something like Sonnet 5... well, maybe not.
As these frontier companies have been boasting, writing software is now a negligible cost because the LLM can do it.
IOW, no, their software can't be a moat, because, according to their own arguments, you can use their LLM to trivially clone their software.
Perhaps, but what you can't clone is familiarity, polish, integration, and network effects. These companies desperately need a moat, and so for example all the new additions to Claude's web interface are becoming the products that the vast majority of people will use and be locked into (if it goes according to their plan).
I'm not sure what network effects even means in the context of llm selection.
good luck.
i doubt it. it cost money to train a model. we can see that with the price increase for Kimi3. Chinese AI companies is leaving a lot of money on the table for third party providers. you think they going to let go of those money that they can make. sooner or later they will want to collect. after all, none of Chinese open weight model is release by a none profit. its all for-profit companies that is releasing open weight model.
The idea that we can out-parameterize frontier models is a common misconception, the true moat that Anthropic and OpenAI is why Chinese model providers are open sourcing and making it dirt cheap to keep pace through its "proxy chain operators"
Someone can, but Apple has essentially admitted defeat and handed the reigns over to Google.
Oh man, they gave them free reign?
How will anyone reign them in now?
For all intensive porpoises, this is like Babe Ruth, chomping at the bat!
You can compare Fable vs Sol vs Kimi in the same harness if you want too and there are meaningful big differences. I chose all Anthropic ones to be safe from the they were finetuned on different harnesses complaint that would be made from that comparison.
Because... I have use-cases where this is true, and use-cases where this falls flat on its face.
I don't actually think it's obvious (at all, really) without defining what "superior" means.
In the same way that I don't think it's obvious that a plane is superior to a car, or a boat, or a bike.
They each do things the others don't, and excel in different spaces.
Open models are indeed very capable, but they will eventually become more specialized to the application to keep an edge. It makes perfect sense that the future shape of AI conforms to the landscape it was born out of.
Sure there will be self-hosters but hosting AI models will always be more of a challenge than running scalable database on your own hardware and specialized hyperscalers will be here.
As for your speculation, I think it's hinging on some companies releasing models for free or no big differences between models. In a world with hyperscalers and companies training models you can quickly recreate Anthropic or OpenAI by having an hyperscaler ally with a model training company, train a good/a better model, and not release it.
They are noticeably different. Benchmarks, anecdotes, all say the same thing.
Now, is a ~6 month lead actually worth 1 gajillion dollars? Maybe not.
oh wait
Was it ever even a claim that open source search engines were trying to outperform google, let alone kill it?
It’s a very new set of technologies, and understanding what is useful to customers and what isn’t is the whole game. Call it, product taste. There were a million cell phones before the iPhone took over the world. Why iPhone? Product taste. There are a million startups, and only a select few become unicorns. Why? Product taste.
You have tripped yourself up there.
iPhone took over as it introduced something innovative over standard phones, but then Open Source (Android) matched the multi-touch and software differences and Apple's branding, lock-in and design etc have managed to keep it as a big player in wealthier countries. IPhone also came on the back of the massive iPod success.
ChatGPT launched the same innovation vs Google Search, but just like Android Opensource AI is moving fast now.
Android has 72.7% market share at present, Open Source AI will do the same unless the frontier labs can continue to do something new.
The frontier labs are saddled with enormous investor and other debts. How long they can keep innovating by spending so much on R&D and paying there staff very high wages remains to be seen.
Once investors cash out via an IPO, the companies are back down to earth and playing in the real world again.
Us developer types like to pretend like specs are the only thing that matters? If you could have a 10x more powerful model you could only access running locally through your terminal, versus a weaker model through a clean web interface, normies will pick the web ui every single time. Product experience is simply everything, as much as we like to pretend like nitty technical decisions are the most important thing.
So? The benefit of open source is that you don’t have to worry about making a ton of money. You just need to be viable.
Apple: premium product a minority is willing to pay for
Android: standard product the majority use
I’m sure there will continue to be iPhone equivalents in the AI world, premium bespoke models. But the vast majority of people will be happy with a cheaper offering.
More like if you could have a 1.25x more powerful model that you could only access through some weird surveillance megacorps aggressive monetization scheme, or choose from 100 others running open models and accessible through 100 different interfaces pandering to every taste.
Normies will choose the megacorp every time, because that was the one in the tv commercial, and within six months will have left for one of the others in a rage.
The only corporate hope is that the government steps in to ban their competition.
Before that we had touchscreen but they sucked.
---
2002: FingerWorks makes advances in multi-touch technology
2005: Apple acquires FingerWorks and its patents
2007: iPhone launchesIf you are looking for more details (as inferred by openrouter data), I built a dashboard that updates daily: https://dirac.run/labs-market-share
If I'm using OpenAI, Anthropic, or Google models, I'm probably using their API directly, so OpenRouter won't have those stats to compare to.
All that said, it is very exciting to see open model usage grow via OpenRouter.
With the price to performance of the latest open models, I think most cases for integration into applications would get a best bang for the buck from an open model.
edit: this exists https://artificialanalysis.ai/
(both my personal and corporate use has done exactly this)
And look, if you disagree with me PLEASE tell me why. What moat do these companies have? I genuinely want to know because looking at the spend for companies like OAI and Anthropic with no actual moat I can identify is actually driving me insane.
- they can still discover entire new untapped markets for AI (that, potentially, only their models can unlock)
- they can find (novel, unique to them) ways to drive down the cost of running their models
- they can provide other ancillary value (e.g. write better harnesses) because of their expertise, and then charge for that value
I'm probably missing a few bullet points also. However, none of those are moats (or at least not yet) ... I'd consider them more like bets. The frontier AI companies are betting "the house" on them, and if they pay off they could, hypothetically, make them financially competitive.
They are not betting the house, they are betting the American economy on it. When this crashes it will take everyone down.
Much better would be if the CTO of Mozilla had actually articulated their own analysis.
I guess they fired whoever used to write copy for these things.
Edit: to be clear, I'm not trying to just dunk on them, I think it's actively hurting their own point to do this, and counter-productive when people can easily clock it - it makes some percent of the audience immediately tune out.
I want to vomit reading that.
I'd say that the front door to the web is pretty much owned by Google and Apple at this point given Firefox current marketshare. And maybe that's enough, maybe a future where a low percentage of open models keep the rest of the system honest but that doesn't seem the argument of this article
Mozilla exists because one company owned the front door to the web, and another company abused their market position to push their free (as in beer) browser. Mozilla is the phoenix rising from the ashes of that first company.
Then another company came along, abused their market position to push their free browser, demolished Firefox's market share but keep handing them cash to avoid the appearance of a monopoly
I've also become sympathetic to their AI strategy. They don't seem delusional in their approach. They're not building models or selling slop, they're building OSS compatibility layers.
I don't want to see a world of vertically locked AI, so if Mozilla truly can dust off the old playbook for OSS AI, we'll all be better off for it.
the pdf is easier to read
Some sentences smell a lot like AI.
Regardless, the inference costs dropping almost 50× is really amazing to see. And now Kimi K3 release has shown how open models are getting closer to the frontier level already. Open source AI is moving a lot faster than Anthropic and OpenAI would have expected lol.