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Posted by Ygg2 10 hours ago

Goodbye, and Thanks for All the Bikesheds(queue.acm.org)
166 points | 174 commentspage 2
bsiverly 5 hours ago|
I feel like “tech bro” is the scapegoat for all bad things in tech these days. It’s fairly dismissive of the ongoing debate and advancement of technology overall IMO
MetaWhirledPeas 7 hours ago||
I had to stop reading halfway through to respond.

> In comparison, tech sisters advocating for an absolute right to privacy seem to be a very rare, and maybe mythical, species.

Ever heard of Meredith Whittaker?

> We could have designed our protocols to be minimally compatible with “a nation of laws,” but the tech bros insisted that compromise was treason, and, as a result, we will lose more privacy than necessary.

This has to be a joke. There's private, and there's not private. There is nothing in between. This is not about tech bros. This is about guiding principles, about personal liberty, and about freedom from tyranny.

> It may not quite be a law of nature, but my personal guess is that the opportunities for anonymity on the Internet will shrink until mothers no longer are forced to have “the talk” when their daughters get their first mobile phone.

In addition to "the talk" guess what else they won't be forced (or allowed) to talk about? Political dissent.

This chunk of the article is both sexist and defeatist. Now to read the rest.

narnarpapadaddy 7 hours ago||
> This is about guiding principles, about personal liberty, and about freedom from tyranny.

The point he’s trying to make, as I understand it, is that states adapt. They don’t just throw up their hands and say “guess we can’t do anything about that encrypted traffic.”

The response to distributed kinetic kill capability in the US, for example, is for police to become more militarized and treat every encounter as a potentially lethal one.

> There's private, and there's not private. There is nothing in between

It’s not an argument about privacy per se, it’s highlighting that the stronger the protections against state surveillance and intervention, the stronger the state becomes. By taking an absolutionist stance, we push our institutions to towards the same in response.

I’m not making an argument or against encryption or privacy, just pointing out the systemic effects.

MetaWhirledPeas 7 hours ago|||
I finished the article. My own bad prediction: If FOSS "dies" it will continue to thrive in 3rd world countries, where no one bothers to administer punishment for the heinous crime of not letting your government's LLM read every word you type. The 1st world will ignore all this until it becomes apparent that the (former) 3rd world countries are suddenly in a position to economically surpass everyone else, and at that point the wise will see that their desire to keep a stranglehold on online activity was actually a bad idea that allowed their dominance to wane and wither.
sph 7 hours ago||
> Ever heard of Meredith Whittaker?

The fact that you name one makes her very rare indeed.

tommydee 5 hours ago|||
- Cindy Cohn, Executive Director of the EFF

- Eva Galperin, Director of Cybersecurity at the EFF

- Runa Sandvik, formerly of Tor Project

- Yan Zhu, EFF Fellow and CISO at Brave

And many, many more.

It rankled me more than a bit that the author apparently looked around his bubble in Denmark and the FOSS community, saw no "tech sister" privacy advocates, and decided to paint with the widest brush possible and assume there are none anywhere.

busterarm 5 hours ago||
Like half this list + Meredith are lawyers/policy people. Add in computer security specialists/operators. They use software as a tool to achieve political ends.

"tech bros" in context of the article is pretty much referring to builders of software. The tech sisters who have built significant projects are indeed mythically rare.

Names like Radia Perlman might be a better choice.

MetaWhirledPeas 1 hour ago|||
> In comparison, tech sisters advocating for an absolute right to privacy seem to be a very rare, and maybe mythical, species.

Care to amend your statement? I don't see any qualification about building software there.

Face it, the author was just searching for another reason to be mad at men in the software realm.

tommydee 1 hour ago|||
If you refresh yourself on the thread originator comment, you will notice we are talking about "tech sisters advocating for an absolute right to privacy", not "tech sisters who have built significant technical projects". I think Dr. Perlman fits in the latter, not the former category.

Also, I think the intended meaning of "tech bros" in the article is more nuanced. Charitably: naive, sophomorically idealistic SV tech entrepreneurs who rode the "information wants to be free" wave to a world where WhatsApp & FB Messenger are E2EE by default. Uncharitably: anyone not in author's idealogical tribe, particularly ideologically impure programmers who have turned to entrepreneurism. And Americans.

Good to know you don't think Yan or Runa's technical work is significant, though.

girvo 6 hours ago|||
I mean I can point to a half dozen that I know personally but they’re not famous shrug. This seems like a weird argument to make to me, and besides the overall point the author was attempting to make anyway
red_admiral 8 hours ago||
The whole age verification thing is being pushed by one "techbro", because he wants others to deal with cleaning up his mess.
encomiast 7 hours ago||
There's another misdirection here as well. Much of this mess doesn't just affect children. It's really pretty bad for everyone.
SoftTalker 8 hours ago||
I make this point pretty much every time I comment on this subject and it's generally downvoted. It's more than one, but one may be the most obvious. The social media and big tech companies made their bed here. They want to operate as if they have no social responsibility and just blame all the bad stuff on users and parents. This was never going to fly over the long term.
failuser 9 hours ago||
This is a very strange read. If that was posted on a random blog, I would have dismissed it. I didn’t know that that cell (anti tech bro, anti big tech, pro age verification laws) in the alignment chart is populated by actual people. And by intelligent people even.

Also the fact they call it “age verification” when they clearly build an identity verification and we just accept their language is crazy.

inigyou 7 hours ago||
I am anti big tech, that's why I support the California digital age assurance act, it pre-empts things like persona by saying that a simple checkbox is age verification.
red_admiral 8 hours ago||
I have a feeling it splits by gender. I know a couple of professional programmers in that corner of the alignment chart, but they're not "bros".
j45 8 hours ago||
I'm surprised to see a publication about ACM join in the blabbing about LLMs instead of show and tell.

Talking isn't doing, just like word generation isn't an outcome.

simianwords 8 hours ago|
I think the mechanism is that ACM has a certain archetype of "bro" self selected into the group. They all have similar views like hating big tech, loving FOSS, pro government regulation and so on. The author probably fills a gap of a priest. This publication itself needed a priest to do the sermon and who better than the author. He touches on all the points of interest here and there and keeps everyone satisfied.

At least, this is what I have come up with because this blog is mostly incoherent blabbering.

sealeck 9 hours ago||
It’s interesting to claim that the ‘tech bros’ oppose hardware attenuation and age verification when this will massively benefit them; everyone will be forced to use their operating system and the government will have exercised its power to protect Microsoft’s god-given right to make money, Peter Thiel’s age verification startup’s ability to collect people’s data and their ability to trace the identity of any critics through identity-based age verification.

That’s why large tech companies are lobbying in favour of this!

zeroCalories 9 hours ago|
Lol this feels trite to say, but tech bros are not ideologically homogenous. You and the author are mixing up different people commonly identified as tech bros.
ctoth 8 hours ago||
> When Edward Snowden revealed that Somebody Important had been taking an interest after all, the tech bros, who had grown up free of adult supervision, felt betrayed and started a campaign to encrypt everything and anything so that prying eyes could never again look them in the cards.

TIL: Phil Zimmermann was a "tech bro" and had a time machine.

evilduck 9 hours ago||
This whole thing can be reduced to "think of the children", see the literal example around paragraph ~30. I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone try so hard to equate being pro-privacy with being pro-crime.
simianwords 8 hours ago||
He really seems to think he made some deep insight on the "bubble" that he seems so confident about.

> So, it is not obvious to me who will be training new iterations of these models once the current bubble explodes, in particular if the returns are diminishing the way I have experienced.

It looks like he has no clue on how market equilibriums work. He really seems to think LLM's will just like.. stop existing.

So in their world, people would suddenly realise that AI is actually not that economic and we can't have Opus 4.8 quality models just with updated knowledge cutoff perpetually. So in his future, things won't just stall, they will literally go back.

He's really putting his emotional weight on this particular kind of future.

Either that or he's making nebulous emotional claims - its his blog so he can do it.

PeterStuer 8 hours ago|
"We could have designed our protocols to be minimally compatible with “a nation of laws,” but the tech bros insisted that compromise was treason, and, as a result, we will lose more privacy than necessary"

Unfortunately, no, you can't have a prophilactic that just makes you a little bit pregnant. We used to know this.

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