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Posted by louiereederson 8 hours ago

Nvidia, Microsoft, Meta warn against overregulating open-weight models(www.cnbc.com)
Letter: https://images.nvidia.com/pdf/Open-Weights-and-American-AI-L... [pdf]

https://x.com/JensenHuang/status/2080643682408321103, https://xcancel.com/JensenHuang/status/2080643682408321103

https://www.wired.com/story/silicon-valley-is-completely-div..., https://archive.ph/LAkVI

367 points | 183 commentspage 3
0xc0c0c0 4 hours ago|
I thought it would've made a lot of sense for Apple to be on this list as well.
himata4113 4 hours ago||
Apple would be rather unaffected since they already signed a deal with Google/Gemini.
bigyabai 4 hours ago||
Because their long-term goal is to make AI a walled garden subscription.
_3u10 1 hour ago||
You can’t train on our models trained on human text, that is stealing the IP we stole first!
austin-schick 7 hours ago||
I'm finding the list of signatories on this letter really interesting and somewhat confusing, looking purely through the lens of economic interest.

It makes sense to see Meta, the startups, and the VC firms on this list. And it makes sense to see OpenAI, Anthropic, and Google all missing. Microsoft is somewhat unexpected to me. I don't think of them as having a focus on open weight models (no more than Google), and they have a large stake in OpenAI. Maybe they're looking at this from the angle of Azure providing compute. But then why is Amazon missing, when it has AWS?

And of course, we don't see DeepSeek, Moonshot, or Z.ai on here. The letter is about American technological leadership after all. But then we _do_ see the French company Mistral! Mistral who released [a playbook](https://europe.mistral.ai/) for Europe becoming a self-reliant AI powerhouse.

I assume all of this is in the context of influencing the Trump administration's thinking on Chinese open weights models. But the letter is really about _American_ open weights models. The call to action is all about keeping the American open weights ecosystem competitive. I didn't even realize that was under threat, so I feel like I'm missing something.

adrian_b 3 hours ago||
Both the CEO of Palantir and the CEO of Microsoft have recently criticized very strongly the business model of OpenAI and Anthropic.

Therefore it is no surprise that both companies are among the signatories.

The motivation of Palantir is very transparent, they have launched a product created in cooperation with NVIDIA, which is a turnkey system (Sovereign AI) that includes all hardware (i.e. a rack with servers full of NVIDIA GPUs) and all software needed by a company to run on its premises LLM inference and also training/fine tuning.

Thus the Palantir product competes with OpenAI and Anthropic and it benefits from the existence of open weights LLMs.

The motivation of Microsoft is more obscure for now, but because its criticism was very similar to that of Palantir, about how dangerous it is for corporations to delegate the processing of their AI needs to external entities like OpenAI and Anthropic, I assume that Microsoft is also going to propose an alternative to using remotely the OpenAI and Anthropic APIs.

Unlike Palantir, Microsoft is not likely to suggest self-hosting on premises, but I suppose that they might promote self-hosting on some kind of instances rented from Azure.

thewebguyd 1 hour ago||
> but I suppose that they might promote self-hosting on some kind of instances rented from Azure.

Yeah, Microsoft wants to sell Azure compute. They also want to sell their upcoming surface ultra hardware with the Nvidia chip in it. They preached hard on "unmetered intelligence" at this year's BUILD conference, went hard on local AI, and Azure Foundry, Windows Foundry Local, etc.

Copilot, both GH and M365, are also made to be model agnostic. Microsoft sells enterprise services and software, they'd prefer (I'm assuming) to not be locked in and dependent on any 1 or 2 model providers and would prefer plenty of options and competition in that space because they can just easily offer a model agnostic harness, integrated with the rest of their stack.

louiereederson 3 hours ago|||
Commoditization of the model layer is to Azure's benefit. It would help to avoid the model layer becoming a platform that commoditizes cloud into a pure bare metal business. It also redistributes 'consumer' surplus back to the end user via a lower effective price, which would conceivably increase demand for IaaS and/or PaaS which are complements.
rubyfan 6 hours ago|||
My hunch is they are all seeing the problems at OpenAI and some other collateral damage on the horizon. They don’t want the US government intervening to try to save OpenAI. A little controlled burn is probably good for the industry long term.
ozgung 2 hours ago|||
> But the letter is really about _American_ open weights models.

AI models don’t really have nationality. They don’t have race/ethnicity fields on their model cards. It’s impossible to determine the country of origin of a model by looking at their weights. There is no DNA test for AIs. They exist in a mathematical space where human-made borders make no sense.

This means IF there is a regulation for open weight models, it has to apply to ALL open weight models. There is no any other option, since you can always train/fine-tune a model to change it’s weights and rebrand it as a new model.

lenerdenator 1 hour ago||
People certainly don't act that way. A lot of the talk is about how great free Chinese models are. Like, they're grouped by the fact that they're Chinese.

How much of that is organic versus something a agitprop agent is commenting in places like HN would be interesting to know, but people very much talk about that from a nationality perspective.

NortySpock 6 hours ago|||
Signatories appear to group into

(a) sellers of hardware (Nvidia, IBM) and those who rent hardware out to others (Amazon, Microsoft)

They want open models because they don't have to license it to run it on their hardware, so they can offer lower cost and inspect what they are offering to clients

(b) open model creators (Arcee, Perplexity, Mistral, IBM, Microsoft)

...who would be unable to work if open-weight models are banned

(c) Software-heavy companies ( Mozilla, The Linux Foundation , ServiceNow, Microsoft, IBM, heck all of them)

...who want models that are cheap to run because that reduces the cost of running an LLM (whether you are trying to replace a software developer or just assist them, the value of a reduced cost LLM is directionally the same)

NitpickLawyer 3 hours ago|||
> Microsoft is somewhat unexpected to me

MS is playing literally all the sides in this whole AI thing. They are a massive investor in oAI, and have lots of rights to use their models for a long time. They also have the cloud where they offer inference w/ all the benefits of already being there, data retention, etc. They also have a research wing that can build models (rumours are they're aiming for frontier-ish). I don't think there's currently an angle in this AI thing that MS hasn't aimed for.

chasd00 5 hours ago|||
> The call to action is all about keeping the American open weights ecosystem competitive. I didn't even realize that was under threat, so I feel like I'm missing something.

OpenAI and Anthropic can bring American open-weight model providers like Meta to court but not the Chinese. Chinese companies breaking American IP law (whether the law is correct or not) are basically immune. This has been going on forever, I guess enough is at stake finally for the federal government to care.

mcast 6 hours ago|||
Google and Amazon both have incredibly large compute deals with frontier labs and GovCloud. They may not want to sour on that cash.
verdverm 6 hours ago||
It helps to understand there are multiple factions within the white house and trump admin. One faction is very hawkish towards allies and enemies, especially China. Another is the one sending ICE to invade American cities, the Christian nationalism and such. Another is very focused on wealth expansion for friends and family. There is an amount of Venn to these groups.
ronbenton 2 hours ago||
So the people lagging in the commercial model game are issuing this warning? Got it.
segmondy 5 hours ago||
At the end of the day, these companies that signed this letter have more cash. What they should do is bring some money together, more money than the other side, donate it and buy their way. That's the 2026 way, no one has time for all this letter and protest. How much are they willing to put on the line?
ck2 3 hours ago||
isn't the real world destroyer going to be when China starts cranking out it's own nvidia chip clones?

remember when bitcoin got its first dedicated hardware, will be like that

pietz 2 hours ago||
Companies that are hurt by open weight models fight against them. Companies that benefit from open weight models fight overregulation. Color me surprised.
etiennebausson 3 hours ago|||
> The unbearable cheapness of open weight models

So the closed model try to get client with their model by saying it's cheaper than employees, and then turn around to lawyer-out cheaper alternative?

Truly the american dream.

palmotea 2 hours ago||
The important thing is that Sam Altman and Dario Amodei become trillionaires. Everything must be decided in service of that one primary goal.
thewebguyd 3 hours ago||
And the verdict is still out on if it's going to be cheaper than employees in the long run. Maybe for companies in HCoL areas (SV/NYC), but any smaller mid-market org in a LCoL area, frontier model token spend may not end up all that cheaper when your employee salaries are $55k-$75k/year so you're mostly evaluating it as an additional force multiplier expense rather than a headcount replacer.
Wowfunhappy 2 hours ago|||
For hosted models, there's no way to know what the real costs are. But we know what it costs to run the open models, and moore's law tells us that it's going to get cheaper, at least for the same capabilities they have today.
davkan 3 hours ago||||
Those salaries seem low for mid sized cities even no?
edot 2 hours ago|||
Nope, not low at all. In the Midwest that’s exceedingly normal, even for non-entry level. $70k a year is living good in the Midwest, especially if dual income household ($140k a year is plenty when a decent house goes for $300k).
davkan 2 hours ago||
Fair enough, 55k would’ve seemed pretty low to me in the NE for a fresh dev. Not 75k though.
Spartan-S63 2 hours ago|||
I think they're generalizing beyond software engineers with what they're saying. G&A, Marketing, etc roles pay significantly less than software engineers and that $55-75k figure is realistic in lower cost of living areas. Even in Colorado, which the Denver Metro Area is HCOL, there are companies (smaller, regional, not national/global) still offering that level of salary.
davkan 2 hours ago||
Yeah that would make more sense. Though it seems to me AI is currently better at reducing dev headcount than most other roles.
idiotsecant 2 hours ago|||
55k??
tentahedronic 2 hours ago||
That is a completely normal programmer salary in many countries, Silicon valley wages are just nuts. For example in Finland 55k before taxes is pretty good for ordinary non-wizard guy who can code, if you are a junior 40k is more realistic (and finding job in the first place can be a huge chaĺlenge..).
satvikpendem 8 hours ago||
The issue is not open weights as a whole, indeed Hegseth himself said they are important for America (if American made, presumably); the issue is Chinese models, whether open or not, and that's what's looking to be banned, and nothing in this article suggests otherwise.
Buttons840 6 hours ago||
What is a "Chinese model"?

If I change one weight in Kimi, is it still a Chinese model?

If I fine-tune Kimi on pro-America nationalistic freedom loving anti-Chinese propaganda, is it still a Chinese model?

If I distill Kimi from one server to the next without ever directly transferring any weights, is it still a Chinese model?

If Claude accidentally trains on some of Kimi's output, is Claude then considered to be a Chinese model?

If China's next open-weight model is released secretly through a European company, is it still a Chinese model?

calebkaiser 7 hours ago|||
The conversation going on in the industry is a bit broader than that. OpenAI's head of strategic futures just said last week that open models are inherently decelerationist, ungovernable, and will slow development on the frontier. You'll notice OpenAI does not appear as a signatory here despite their relationship with Microsoft.
derektank 7 hours ago|||
>open models are inherently decelerationist, ungovernable, and will slow development on the frontier

Ungovernable makes intuitive sense, but I don’t understand how open weight models could be decelerationist or slow the development of the frontier. Was there an argument for those positions?

newpavlov 7 hours ago|||
Open weight models challenge the "winner takes all" hypothesis, which motivates the astronomical valuations and acts as a justification for trains of cash dumped into AI development.

In other words, if AI models become a commodity, the "AI leaders" will not be able to burn the cash like they do today, thus resulting in a "slower" (one could say instead "more sustainable") development of AI models.

vatsachak 3 hours ago|||
Well maybe they should find better training methods or architectures
whattheheckheck 5 hours ago|||
Tough shit welcome to capitalism
calebkaiser 7 hours ago||||
Here's his original post https://x.com/i/status/2078133895766114412
wat10000 6 hours ago|||
It's a copy/paste of the arguments against open source software from decades ago. The argument goes: innovation requires profit motive, and profit motive requires IP rights. Of course, this was soundly disproven in software and I don't see any reason it should be different here.
skeledrew 5 hours ago||
Chinese providers are actively debunking that argument by innovating on and releasing open weight models.
satvikpendem 7 hours ago||||
Well of course OpenAI and Anthropic say those sorts of things, it's what they've always said, particularly Anthropic, but that doesn't necessarily mean that's the position of the US government. In other words the government seems to be listening to some but not all of the lobbying done by the big two.
calebkaiser 7 hours ago||
The guy who said those things just joined OpenAI in the last month. He was previously a senior policy advisor, specifically on AI, to the current administration in the White House.

I don't know that the US government has a unified position on open source AI. But it's not like this isn't a discussion happening among policymakers.

jwitthuhn 3 hours ago|||
Surprised to see I partially agree. They are indeed ungovernable and that is the best part.
roenxi 7 hours ago|||
> ...the issue is Chinese models, whether open or not, and that's what's looking to be banned...

Is the US planning to invade China and take away their models? Because otherwise China is still going to have the models even if the US bans them. I don't think they're going to be going with the US position on this one.

fidotron 7 hours ago|||
It's the same patronizing nonsense as when all the US webcos pulled out of the Chinese market in some misguided supposed protest believing the Chinese so incapable of rolling their own Google, Amazon or WhatsApp they will come begging the americans to go back. Now the western tech universe goes to China for ideas.
lenerdenator 6 hours ago||
If by "pulled out of the Chinese market" you mean "were hacked by the Chinese government in a way that compromised their intellectual property and the safety of dissidents", then yes [0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Aurora

fidotron 5 hours ago||
The point is did the US reaction work or was it completely counter productive?

Then will attempting to cutoff China again today work or do we expect that also will prove to achieve the exact opposite of what its proponents are claiming?

lenerdenator 2 hours ago||
We didn't cut off anything. American companies would have been more than happy to continue offering products and services in the Chinese market.

The Chinese government didn't like that idea. They attacked American companies, stole the IP, and created their own analogs of American corporate offerings. If you are a company and are targeted by a totalitarian government, it's not unreasonable to pull out of that totalitarian government's jurisdiction.

Honestly, the American response to that was not nearly stout enough. Chinese goods and services had been sold in the US without issue for decades at that point, often to the detriment of both domestic and other international market players. When China was expected to play by those rules and allow American companies to do business in a mostly-unfettered way, they attacked the companies and drove them out of their market.

satvikpendem 6 hours ago|||
Banned in the US, obviously, not worldwide. The problem is if the US wanted to, they actually could enforce such a ban nearly worldwide, by putting Chinese AI companies on a sanctions list and disallowing any US company (or anyone that does business with a US company, which is much of the world) from touching them.
Freedumbs 6 hours ago||
Why anyone would care what Hegseth thinks about open weight models? What's wrong with Chinese models? The censorship? I think it's good to have diversity of opinion. Get US flavored output on sensitive subjects from US models and ZH on ZH models. That's a useful tool.
deepsquirrelnet 6 hours ago|||
China is doing open models better. I think there's little going in Hagueseth's head other than the usual reactionary nationalism reflex.
satvikpendem 6 hours ago|||
I mean I agree with you, as what I said above is not my position, that's the US government's position.
steele 3 hours ago|
We demand that possible all avenues to observe, replicate, and resell exogenous value remain uninhibited until ROI and monopoly is achieved!
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