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Posted by mlenhard 9 hours ago

The relay market powering token resellers and fraud(vectoral.com)
138 points | 86 commentspage 3
boznz 3 hours ago|
The relays sound also like a nice source of monitoring for whoever controls them.
faeyanpiraat 3 hours ago|
Its so much stuff going through them, how would they monitor it all?
hsienchuc 7 hours ago||
I use both of subscription and API services. on last month, i chat with CLI and let it to do something. After that, maybe in one days pass, i received the $32 USD bill. it cause my left my API key and CLI call the API to do job not through subscription.
iririririr 5 hours ago||
wow. Ai providers can't solve fraud 101 with their oh-so-dangerous-if-released-models?

i think this alone is the biggest bear signal

mito88 6 hours ago||
what tokens are these being sold?
feverzsj 7 hours ago||
Token is the new cryptocurrency.
arkhiver 7 hours ago|
token is the new... token!
inigyou 6 hours ago||
You are shadowbanned.
altmanaltman 7 hours ago||
"Token reseller market" is a fancy way of saying credit card fraud. If someone stole xboxs from stores using stolen credit cards and then sold them at 10% of their price, at what point is it a "resller market" and not "criminal enterpirse"?
jonfromsf 5 hours ago||
These aren't stolen credit cards. This hack works by maxing out subscription limits of the Anthropic/OpenAI plans, so you never pay additional API fees. It's fraud but not theft.
peyton 5 hours ago||
It’s pretty clearly theft of services as generally defined in most places. It’s a hack in the same sense that rolling back your electric meter is a hack.
miohtama 3 hours ago||
Violation of Terms of Service is civil, not criminal, matter.
__MatrixMan__ 7 hours ago|||
With theft, somebody ends up without an Xbox. Theft is wrong. This is mere breach of contract, whether it's wrong depends on the contract.
selectodude 6 hours ago|||
You’ll have to clarify who the counterparties are to this contract and where the person whose credit card was stolen fits into it.
__MatrixMan__ 6 hours ago||
I don't doubt that stolen cards are involved, but you could say that for anything that has to do with card-not-present transactions, e.g. Amazon retail. Is there reason to believe that it's especially prominent in this case?

I assume most of it is just people who want cheaper access to these models and don't mind subsidizing access via somebody who is simultaneously distilling the model.

mynegation 5 hours ago||||
What?! It is definitely credit card fraud, and a criminal enterprise, and by any definition it is wrong. I cannot imagine a jurisdiction where this is a “mere breach of contract”.
__MatrixMan__ 5 hours ago|||
Where are you getting the idea that the cards are stolen? Sure it's mentioned that some of them likely are, but there's no reason to believe that that's most of them or that the fact that they're stolen has anything to do with the way this market functions.

This is about controlling who gets to use the tokens for what, not about payment fraud.

zht 7 hours ago|||
What?
phildenhoff 6 hours ago||
It's not _theft_ because nothing is _stolen_. The tokens are being used in a way that breaches the contract agreed to by whomever set up the account with OpenAI, Anthropic, Kilo, Antigravity etc. but it's not theft.
__MatrixMan__ 5 hours ago|||
Right, theft requires that there be somebody who no longer has access. This is about too many people having access. Piracy might be a more fitting term.
chasd00 5 hours ago|||
The credit card and the money is what was stolen.
__MatrixMan__ 5 hours ago||
Are we reading the same article? That's mentioned once, as a potential alternative, nested in a bulleted list of alternatives. This is not an article about credit card fraud.

This is about people circumventing the model company's attempts to protect their intellectual "property" (which, if you insist on that incoherent usage of the word "property", they themselves stole from the rest of us).

It's equivalent to buying a DVD in the US which is region-locked to Asia. Grey market, not black market. If you use a stolen credit card to buy that DVD, well tat's a totally separate matter.

1337h4xx 1 hour ago||
It's mostly refunding and card fraud because "bad money drives out good" in any marketplace. It's equivalent to getting a refund on an Amazon package you received, which is why a frontier model is being sold at around 2% of the face value.
iansmith_hn 7 hours ago|||
Fair enough. Is the right enforcement then to ignore the "token resellers" and go after the credit card business listed at the "upstream" on his post?
glerk 3 hours ago||
one man's fraud is another man's arbitrage opportunity
receptopalak 6 hours ago||
[flagged]
markus_zhang 8 hours ago|
I don't know anything about tokens. Does the following argument make sense?

1. Tokens are model-specific: e.g. tokens used by Anthropic cannot be used in models of other companies.

2. Tokens are generated by GPU cards. They measure the power of GPU cards.

3. Tokens cannot be separated from the models. You sort of "connect" the software part (models) into the hardware part (GPU cards) to use the tokens generated from the hardware.

capitalsigma 7 hours ago||
Tokens measure "how much work the model did" in the same way that step counts measure "how far the person went"

GPUs "generate tokens" in the same sense that human feet "generate steps"

You can't compare token counts across different providers to get an absolute measure of "total work done" for the same reason that you can't compare step counts across different people to get an absolute measure of "total distance traveled"

irishcoffee 8 hours ago||
No, all 3 points are incorrect. I’m not even pro-LLM and I’ll tell you this.

You should do a bit of reading on what a token is. The short answer is that it’s a series of 2-4 bytes of information turned into an integer.

Your comparisons are akin to asking “are amazon gift cards the same as a bunch of pesos?”