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Posted by surprisetalk 6 hours ago

Harmony Explained: Progress Towards a Scientific Theory of Music (2012)(arxiv.org)
73 points | 53 commentspage 2
bobson_dugnutt5 5 hours ago|
I don't find this convincing at all. The actual interesting attempt at scientific theory of harmony in this could be distilled to a couple of lines, yet the author rambles endlessly in ways that don't add to the piece at all. I already knew his additions from traditional music theory already, so I can't really see what the purpose of this is.
brudgers 5 hours ago||
The slight of hand in standard Western European music theory is that stacking 5ths gives you Lydian and its tritone as the foundational seven pitch scale. Major/Ionian is the fourth mode of this scale.

Not that there’s anything wrong with that…except when it comes to science as a basis for an argument from authority.

Like all music, people like what they like.

dhosek 4 hours ago|
For that matter, the first 5 stacked fifths gives you the standard pentatonic scale. Extending by a fifth on either end and you get the most common accidentals in Western music (if your first seven give C major you’ll get F# and B♭). I think (but I’m not sure) that some of the non-Western microtonal scales extend the tonality by not ignoring the Pythagorean comma when you’ve done the 12th fifth, but by continuing to stack fifths for more harmonies.
brudgers 2 hours ago||
From C the first six stacked fifths give C Lydian, not C major. (You get an F#, the 5th of B as the seventh pitch, not F the 5th of Bb).

You don’t get the perfect fourth until you go all the way around the circle of fifths.

You cannot stack perfect fifths and get a major scale.

dhosek 1 hour ago||
I was being sloppy and should have said diatonic scale.
claiir 5 hours ago||
Nice. But, is there a less “conversationally” written piece on the subject? In any event, this stuck with me: > Most music theory books are like medieval medical textbooks: they contain unjustified superstition, non-reasoning, and funny symbols glorified by Latin phrases
the__alchemist 6 hours ago||
Check out the 3Blue1Brown video on this topic as well! It goes more in depth on music theory than any music-community one I've seen. (Which tend to be presented as "Here are the rules"; Grant, like this article, goes into the "why"; a step below. With great visuals, of course!
thecommakozzi 5 hours ago|
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a-dub 4 hours ago||
i tend to think of this stuff in terms of top down information theoretic approaches to composition and bottom up psychophysics of auditory perception. there is some cool work out there where physicists attempt to compute information content of western classical music and then there is all the fun stuff around the biophysics of the cochlea, nonlinear frequency discrimination and frequency selectivity of the ear.
atoav 6 hours ago||
A good overview on the topic.

My general issue with things like these is the simple fact, that as a lifelong musician I find the "less worse" harmonic combinations (to quote the abstract) often very boring. Aside from great composers like Bach et al I find the harmonic relationship of the notes played one of the least interesting aspects of the music, and expression, timbre, rhythm, phrasing much more important and noteworthy. A set of great musicians can play a single note for minutes and get it to sound amazing, this has always fascinated me more.

Music theory IMO has historically a too strong focus on the harmony (or the lack thereof) between notes. Not that it isn't important, but with some texts you get the feeling it wouldn't matter to the authors whether the piece was heard expressively played on a grand piano or cut together from equal leveled sine waves.

In my experience harmonies are greatly influenced by the relative levels of the notes and the overtone content within each note, to a degree you can make a supposed "harmonic" chord sound bad and a supposed disharmonic one sound good.

diydsp 5 hours ago||
A professor taught us genre is defined by how you resolve dissonance...

And dissonance has cultural and physiological components...

And other traditions focus on rhythm over harmony...

That said this looks like a good introduction.

PaulDavisThe1st 5 hours ago||
That's a great line from the professor. Really great.

Also, other traditions focus on melody over harmony (e.g. Carnatic and Hindustani), although they have to consider harmony as a by-product of polyphonic music (i.e. more than 1 instrument).

otabdeveloper4 36 minutes ago||
> Also, other traditions focus on melody over harmony

Like Western electronic music written after 1960, for example. :)

(And electronic music is, like, basically all we have today.)

PaulDavisThe1st 16 minutes ago||
This is really not true.

Firstly, "western electronic music" covers an enormous range, from still, wall-of-sound ambient to four-on-the-floor EDM to music that sounds like any other but is generated using electronic/digital instruments.

Secondly, I could give you tons of examples of western electronic music that is almost entirely about harmony and not melody. The first one that springs to mind is any of Steve Roach's "immersion" series, or even more so "Mystic Chords and Sacred Spaces". But basically anything that might get played on SomaFM's "Drone Zone" channel is in the same category.

So, I suspect you have a much more specific idea of what you actually meant by "western electronic music", and you should likely lay it out more precisely.

antonyt 5 hours ago|||
Do you have any examples of "a single note for minutes and get it to sound amazing"? I'm finding this difficult to imagine. A lead voice doing this while some accompaniment is changing chords underneath makes sense to me, but then you're back to harmonic relationships.
dgellow 5 hours ago|||
Half joking, but Berlin techno :)

You can have a whole set developing motifs, then multiple minutes of a single note being played in the middle, and somehow that sounds awesome (if you’re into it)

nwatson 4 hours ago|||
Not quite one note, but "Open Eye Signal" (2023 remaster) by Jon Hopkins has wide spectrum background and heavy rhythms, but once the song gets going the main instrument moves between fifth -> seventh-flat -> sixth -> fifth on repeat, and that's the melody for the song. And yet, to me, it's captivating.
dgellow 1 hour ago||
Thanks for the suggestion, that’s a really neat discovery! I will try to integrate that in my own music
IAmGraydon 5 hours ago|||
A long hold of one note doesn't mean there isn't harmonic progression. It just means the progression is slow in that part of the song. It's often done to create a massive contrast that occurs when the progression finally...progresses. In electronic music, this often comes as the drop or some similar kind of break.
otabdeveloper4 32 minutes ago||
No, in electronic music harmonic progressions are done by manipulating timbre.

Try it yourself - play one note on repeat and start twirling the cutoff knob.

klaff 5 hours ago||||
I can only think of examples which as you describe have accompaniment moving underneath. Neil Young's solo in Cinnamon Girl is one example. Another is Bob Dylan's Like a Rolling Stone in which he sings one note as the chords run up C Dm Em F and only breaks on the G.
NobodyNada 4 hours ago||||
Adam Neely has an interesting video about one-note muisc, with some good (and bad) examples: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSuK_5zW2iM
otabdeveloper4 34 minutes ago||||
Chariots of Fire is pretty dope.
brudgers 5 hours ago|||
I'm finding this difficult to imagine

Maybe go on Youtube and listen to music that you might not be familiar with?

Cage, Schaffer, Stockhousen, Boulez are some composers in the tradition of European classical music.

If you go outside that tradition, there’s even more. Endlessly more.

klaff 5 hours ago|||
Have you read Sethares' Tuning Timbre Spectrum Scale book or the shorter paper? It gets right in on the topic of the interrelationship between timbre and dissonance. As you say, the timbres of the instruments are very important to how dissonance is or isn't experienced by the listener.
IAmGraydon 5 hours ago||
Also a lifelong musician here, and I think you're completely wrong about harmony. Western music (assuming that's what we're talking about here) IS directly derived from harmonic progression. It is truly the core of the music. The underlying chords are the obvious harmonic progression. Melody is just an expression of underlying harmonic structure. Rhythm is meant to emphasize the changes and movement of harmonic structure. Timbre itself is meaningless without a note to carry it, and a note is meaningless without the harmony it implies.

All of the many parts of western music serve the harmonic progression. This is because human emotion attaches itself most strongly to harmonic progression, and music is the art of manipulating human emotion through sound.

>A set of great musicians can play a single note for minutes and get it to sound amazing, this has always fascinated me more.

Someone already asked, but give me an example.

klaff 4 hours ago|||
>Timbre itself is meaningless without a note to carry it

I suppose that is literally true but I think of timbre (especially after reading Sethares who I mentioned earlier) as telling me about the notes that are brought along for the ride but aren't shown on the sheet music. It's well known that a distorted powerchord introduces a major 3rd (and not the 12TET major third) as well as a phantom or missing bass note and other higher notes which may or may not be perceptible in a given piece. Quite a bit different from what two flutes playing a root and fifth will give you.

IAmGraydon 4 hours ago||
That makes some sense, but if you look at a spectrum analysis of any signal that isn't a sine wave (and specially for highly clipped signals like you mention here), they consist of many tens or hundreds of even and odd harmonics, which is what you're referring to here when you say a root/fifth chord under distortion produces a major third phantom note. In truth, it creates many, many phantom notes, and pretty much any instrument, even a flute, does as well. Yes, that's the timbre - the relationship of the harmonics that result from a waveform. That's the very idea behind additive synthesis, where the harmonic nodes are individually created from a series of sine waves. So I guess it could be said that a single non-sine note would produce a harmony (multiple notes with a harmonic relationship), but this is not the same thing as a harmonic progression, where that relationship would change.
toolslive 4 hours ago|||
Not a one-note solo, but Miles Davis's solo on So What is really minimalistic.
cyanclouds 4 hours ago||
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crawfordcomeaux 4 hours ago||
I stopped automatically judging things 10 years ago and all of a sudden could enjoy listening to everything. Music theory based on pleasure without accounting for this self-manipulation we're brought up to do isn't solid at all. And expectation making is another thing I stopped doing. I now make music that tends to defy expectations and tonality.

Here's a statistical mechanics paper that I don't quite understand yet, but seems more aligned with the physics of harmony.

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aav8490

Harmony isn't just the chords made, though. It's about the progression between chords,too.

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