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Posted by jruohonen 5 hours ago

Big Food vs. the People(www.lighthousereports.com)
134 points | 89 commentspage 2
connor11528 5 hours ago|
america has a monopoly problem
rootusrootus 4 hours ago||
Indeed if we could solve one thing with our gov't, I'd want it to be antitrust enforcement. For an ostensibly free market society we seem awfully willing to accept it being anything but.
m463 3 hours ago|||
I'd like corporations (bodies) to be prosecuted like human bodies, where bad behavior was noted, you got a record, and punishment increased through fines, restrictions all the way to forms of incarceration, and even the death penalty.
sellmesoap 2 hours ago||
Alright, this week it's the marketing departments turn in jail, see you guys back here next week when it's HRs turn!
triceratops 2 hours ago||
On the bright side, an ironclad excuse to skip the team offsite /s
perpetuallunch 1 hour ago||
Maybe they could incascerate the plant and equipment.

This week half the photocopiers are in foster care (prison).

Next week, half the backup generators.

Straw 3 hours ago||||
If you wanted to do the most to improve competitiveness possible, by far the most effective strategy would be free trade. Trade barriers prevent competition from overseas, making monopolies much easier to maintain.
mathgeek 2 hours ago|||
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Depends on the barriers to entry as an example. An effective anti-monopoly strategy needs different tools at different times.
worik 58 minutes ago||
> Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

An economist....

cogman10 2 hours ago|||
Free trade has little impact on monopolies. The biggest corporations in the US are international and the massive amount of free trade we've had from Reagan to Trump's second term has only resulted in these companies becoming even more consolidated.

What free trade enables is for monopolistic corporations to take control of foreign resources to circumvent and undermine US labor laws. They'll buy the rights to the same crops growing in Mexico or Candida for cheaper than the US to undercut US farmers. None of that changes the price they are selling goods in the US and in fact ultimately results in prices going up in both Mexico and Candida.

Straw 38 minutes ago||
You claim that a law that prevents or hinders you from making transactions with certain parties, while privileging other parties by exempting them from these restrictions, doesn't make it easier for the privileged parties to form a monopoly?
cogman10 30 minutes ago||
No, I claim that we spend 3 decades of free trade and we didn't see corporations get smaller. Republicans and Democrats had a free trade policy since Carter really.

If it were true that free trade results in more competition, then you'd expect that there would be more companies competing, not fewer. We see fewer companies.

Your theory has been tested in reality and it fails.

Straw 24 minutes ago||
There are many other factors affecting the size of corporations. For example, a significant increase in the amount of regulation in other sectors of the economy.

More importantly, the raw number of corporations isn't how you measure a monopoly. Profit margins are the key sign of monopoly pricing- but in practice, corporate profit margins have been relatively stable in percentage terms over time. Prices for virtually all consumer goods are way down in real terms over the last 30 years.

In particular, trade might get you more competition with fewer corporations, but via competition with overseas producers. These might show up as a few importing corporations, representing a whole slew of competitors abroad.

stronglikedan 2 hours ago||||
> For an ostensibly free market society we seem awfully willing to accept it being anything but.

We were, but it has devolved into crony capitalism. I don't think it's too late to revert, but I do doubt we'll ever get our shit together and fix it.

kibwen 4 hours ago|||
Free markets tend to produce monopolies. You know how economies of scale are a thing? That's another way of saying that small companies lose to large companies at scale. "Disruption" or "agility" is the only thing that small companies have going for them, but once the monopolist gets large enough they can just buy up any upstarts and keep the market all to themselves forever. This is why you require governments to periodically shake the snowglobe and restore markets to competitiveness... until the monopolist gets big enough that they just buy the government, anyway.
pphysch 4 hours ago|||
Exactly. If you ask anyone on the street, "is it easier for a fast food worker or a business-owning millionaire to make their next million dollars?", common sense will prevail.

Money begets money (and power). It doesn't require an economics degree to understand this positive feedback loop.

Straw 3 hours ago|||
[flagged]
cogman10 2 hours ago|||
> Can you find true monopolies in the free market

Your definition of monopoly isn't what people are commonly talking about when they say "monopoly".

Granted, you have the correct definition, just not the colloquial one.

What people say "monopoly" what they are really talking about is industries captured by few big players. For example, grocery stores. There's not a true monopoly there but there is damage done by the fact that there's very little competition in that space. Both to consumers and product manufacturers. These big grocery chains use their leverage to get prices smaller chains can't compete with. Further, they have been trying to consolidate (see Kroger Albertsons merger) to further exert anti-trust behaviors.

A clear example of the damage done by this sort of hyper consolidation is what's happened to the memory market. Multiple times the 3 big players have been hit with anti-trust lawsuits because of the price fixing they've engaged in. It's true they are not true monopolies, but they exert exactly the problematic behavior of a true monopoly. It's very unlikely that the free market would ever fix this.

Straw 46 minutes ago||
Groceries are an excellent example of competition. Profit margins on groceries are razor thin. The large chain leverage results in lower consumer prices. Large grocery chains don't have anomalously high profits, ROI, or really anything that would indicate harm to consumers. Groceries are cheaper than ever compared to median wages.

The memory market is international, its not clear what anti trust even means here. Even so, look at the price of memory over time, say the last 20-30 years. Adjust for inflation and its even more extreme. Sure, it is up recently with AI demand, but the general trend is drastically reducing cost and increasing quality. Memory technologies are evolving quickly and it's a capital-intensive business, so its not surprising that there are a few leaders. There's no guarantee of instant competition in free markets.

Cartels rarely last long without enforcement. There's such a strong incentive to defect and secretly sell more under the table. Even OPEC could not maintain one. Memory right now is expensive simply because demand outstrips supply and there is significant capital investment and lead time to increasing supply.

cogman10 20 minutes ago|||
> Large grocery chains don't have anomalously high profits

Define "anomalously" What do you mean by this? You'd admit that large grocery chains do have high profits right? Even with "razor thin" margins.

Large grocery outlets do love to claim that their margins are razor thin yet somehow each of them are some of the wealthiest in the nation. How can that be if they are so good for the customers?

> its not clear what anti trust even means here.

Price fixing [1]

> There's such a strong incentive to defect and secretly sell more under the table. Even OPEC could not maintain one.

OPEC is the exception, not the rule. And enforcement is a lot easier when there are fewer players. The reason OPEC has a hard time enforcing it's prices is because there are are too many players. Were they standard oil, they'd almost certainly be able to maintain their prices and discipline.

Cartels very rarely dissolve on their own. The free market naturally tends towards consolidation and cartels forming.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRAM_industry_price_fixing

vjvjvjvjghv 3 hours ago|||
What you are describing sounds great in theory, but the real world doesn’t work like that.

In more and more areas the obstacle to enter a market is not regulations but money.

Straw 37 minutes ago||
I'd say exactly the same about antitrust. Can you give an example of a lasting monopoly not backed by some government policy? At any point in the last 150 years?
arthurjj 3 hours ago|||
The article says 80% of the lawsuits were in Mexico and ~3% were in America.
xXSLAYERXx 3 hours ago|||
I believe this is the second best time to start a business in America. The first was colonial times.
artisinal 4 hours ago|||
In many European countries, the largest restaurant chain is American. Not great.
bluGill 4 hours ago|||
You seem to be assuming chains are good. I prefer the one location restaurant myself, but by definition they will never be the largest chain.
cbg0 4 hours ago|||
McDonald's might be the largest restaurant chain in Italy but that doesn't really mean much given how many small restaurants the country has with high quality food.
artisinal 3 hours ago||
Also due to food standards a random McDonalds in a random village in Italy will have significantly better food than most restaurants in the US. The Italian McDonalds will use locally sourced fresh produce straight from the farm, cooked by high-end chefs to create a very good tasting meal that is super healthy and good for you.

There is a reason those Italians live so long. Their McDonalds is better than others. It is literally illegal to sell McDonalds foods the way Americans make it.

rootusrootus 2 hours ago|||
> It is literally illegal to sell McDonalds foods the way Americans make it.

You should see what they do in the UK. Looks tasty, but healthy it certainly is not.

vjvjvjvjghv 3 hours ago|||
“ cooked by high-end chefs”

They aren’t high end chefs. They are normal workers that aren’t squeezed by their company to produce food in the cheapest way

artisinal 39 minutes ago||
All chefs at McDonalds Italy are highly trained skilled professionals with a passion to provide everyone in their country with healthy meals.
IncreasePosts 3 hours ago|||
I think chess and scrabble are more popular here
stronglikedan 2 hours ago|||
it's an extension of our crony capitalism problem, where the free market is just an illusion
dhosek 4 hours ago|||
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black_13 4 hours ago|||
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dabbz 4 hours ago||
True, we have way too many thematic versions of Monopoly. I'm still missing so many copies.
citizenpaul 3 hours ago||
Is it REALLY that hard for so many people to just stop drinking sugar water? I just don't get it. I can drink a soda or whatever once a year and thats more than enough for me, I usually don't even finish it. Is there something wrong with me or everyone else?
stronglikedan 2 hours ago||
Yes, it's really hard for people that already regularly drink sugar water to quit the sugar water, but it's not very hard for those that don't drink it regularly to abstain indefinitely. The reason is the gut microbome, which drives your cravings. If you regularly drink it, you have more of the types of gut bacteria that consume it, and they tell your brain to give them more. If you don't regularly drink it, you don't have enough of those types of bacteria to make a dent in your cravings. In other words, you really are what you eat (or more precisely you are what eats what you eat).
flerchin 2 hours ago|||
There's a large subsection of people that choose various vices. Gambling, drugs, alcohol (I repeat), soda and junk food. To folks that do not partake in these things, it's bizarre behavior. Literally none of those appeal to me, but there's clearly profit to be made supplying them.
program_whiz 2 hours ago|||
Are you asking why people can't seem to stop? Or why you seem to possess that ability? Both are biologically mechanistic like all behavior. Probably similar to why some people will kill for heroine while many don't. Or maybe the same reason your gut bacteria can process certain foods others would die from (peanuts), it's environment plus biology in a complex set of local minima that cause repeated behaviors. Is it surprising a biological system optimized to gorge sugary food as late as 200 years ago struggles to stop now? You may have well starved if you ate just one helping while food was available, discipline around food would be a fools pursuit (like intentionally drinking less water than your fill at an oasis).
cogman10 2 hours ago|||
Sugar water and junk food taste good and people like myself crave that sweet flavor.

If I'm not careful, I can easily and comfortably guzzle liters of soda in a day.

It's less a hard thing and more a "I'm on autopilot right now, I'm thirsty, and there's a can of soda in the fridge" thing. A similar thing happens with junk food. If I'm hungry, on autopilot, and it's available. I'll probably grab junk food because it's fast, convenient, and tastes good.

You are abnormal for not being able to finish 1 can of soda in a year. Nothing is wrong with you for being like that, you are simply an outlier. There's a reason why Coke is one of the most wealthy businesses in the world.

aaron695 2 hours ago||
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Sverigevader 2 hours ago|||
Disclaimer: I'm highly biased.

I think sugar is an addictive substance just like coffee, and tobacco/alcohol. Sugar and coffee are easier to shake than tobacco or alcohol. If you manage to stay off of it for a few days, you're back to normal. But it's socially acceptable to have a sweet tooth so most people, like with coffee, just keep "using". Some people don't get addicted to things as easily as others. Perhaps you're just one of them?

Most of my information comes from this doctor, Robert Lustig. Here's the latest podcast he was on if you're interested: https://youtu.be/BhEsYJ6gEHY. At around the hour-mark, he starts talking about the addiction side of sugar. There are talks with him that go way back. Around 17 years IIRC.

He's a bit peculiar I suppose, and seems to be on some sort of a crusade against "big food" and "big sugar", but I really sympathize with the guy.

mathgeek 2 hours ago|||
It is, indeed, for some people. It's a core part of why GLP-1 drugs work wonders for some people. Shutting up the "little fat person constantly telling your brain it needs food" is liberating if you have those urges.
317070 2 hours ago|||
Different people have different susceptibilities to getting addicted. And once addicted different people have different amount of brainspace left in their life to quit addictions, also depending on how hard the rest of society makes it to quit.

So, there is neither something wrong with you, nor with everyone else.

bix6 2 hours ago|||
Free clean water isn’t available many places so would you rather spend your money on water or a sugar hit? I’m with you on water though it’s so delicious.
deely3 2 hours ago|||
Good for you. Can you please convince anyone to do the same?
mmooss 2 hours ago||
Is it really that hard for people to stop doom scrolling or to stop inhaling or drinking dangerous chemicals?

They aren't selling these foods and coincidentally they are addictive. They have chosen the most addictive foods to sell - that's what makes them the most money. It turns out prune juice doesn't sell as well as soda, so that guy got fired.

EGreg 4 hours ago|
Very relevant: https://magarshak.com/blog/government-and-industry-distract-...