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Posted by c-oreills 5 hours ago

How the words we teach English language learners changed(pudding.cool)
159 points | 88 commentspage 2
dredmorbius 3 hours ago||
Trying to read this article by paging through it with the spacebar is ... absolutely impossible.

I'm not going to finger-scroll or down-arrow the whole thing.

Don't break scrolling. Please.

WalterBright 2 hours ago||
A new fad I've seen more and more lately is removing the scroll bars. Arrgh.
dredmorbius 2 hours ago||
Not only have they killed the scrollbar, but they've attempted to kill my scrollbar-killing rant: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21356511>.

That seems not to be available at either the Internet Archive nor Archive Today:

<https://web.archive.org/web/20200000000000*/https://ello.co/...>

<https://archive.is/https%3A%2F%2Fello.co%2Fdredmorbius%2Fpos...>

Sic transit gloria data.

Update: At least some of the Wayback captures have the actual page content if you view source. See for example: <https://web.archive.org/web/20210524202824/https://ello.co/d...>.

(Another reason I'm pretty salty about breaking basic HTML page functionality for slick trix.)

WalterBright 2 hours ago||
My Mac mini has that wretched problem with every window.
bluGill 3 hours ago||
I thought it was one of those paywalls that give you a taste. Since it wasn't enough for me to pay I was going for close when more came up. Only then did I realize what was going on. It was still annoying enough give up after a few more pages.
wseqyrku 4 hours ago||
It's changed so much I can't even parse the title.
shh_labs 2 hours ago|
Evidently grammar's become slacker
bethekidyouwant 4 hours ago||
Why keen?
OJFord 4 hours ago|
Interesting one if you look at Google Ngram Viewer – usage dropped off massively to 70s/80s, and it's picked back up since but not to 1953 or earlier levels, so even that doesn't explain it.

Must just be the combination of that increase as well as other words decreasing in usage I suppose. E.g. perhaps we're a bit less keen, but also much less passionate, so keen ends up making the cut.

ghaff 4 hours ago||
As a native English speaker, keen feels like a very 1950s TV word. Don't know if that's actually true but feels like that way. I expect you're more likely to hear like cool today are some more contemporary word.
mixmastamyk 4 hours ago|||
Brits still use the word somewhat frequently, though I haven’t bumped into many of them in the last ten years.
ifwinterco 2 hours ago|||
Keen is definitely a word but when used to describe a person it’s often a bit of a backhanded compliment… you don’t really want to be keen.

Saying "I'm keen to do x" or "he's keen to do y" is a fairly common normal usage but having said that, wouldn't normally be my first choice of language as a millennial, maybe does sound a bit old fashioned

saltcured 3 hours ago||||
Right, as far as live exposure, I associate its usage with UK/AU/NZ expats in my western US, academic R&D microcosm.
ghaff 3 hours ago|||
Yeah, I guess I can also see it as more of a Britishism (etc.) currently.
OJFord 3 hours ago||||
I'm also a native English speaker, sounds perfectly normal & commonplace to me.
ndsipa_pomu 1 hour ago||||
Still in common use in Britain as far as I know. A more local (Bristolian) word would be "keener" used to describe someone who puts lots of effort into a task to win praise.
bethekidyouwant 4 hours ago|||
“It offers fewer words for the people directly around you, but more for belonging at a distance” - the further I get into this article the more it just seems like sampling bias as a narrative.
OJFord 3 hours ago||
It's a wordy (/AI?) way to say it, but I took it to be commenting on our lives being more 'abstract'/digital than they were, so naturally a lot of our language is less physical.

Oughtn't really affect emotive language like 'keen', though.

thomastjeffery 3 hours ago||
> It’s as if the world now requires you to be more precise about everything.

This is something I've been thinking a lot about. We have trended from subjective language to objective language. Why?

Computing. Software is written with objective language. Everything is clearly unambiguously defined. Blue is no longer a category, it's #0000FF. Logic must always reduce to a binary truth value. Most of what we have to talk about is somehow relative to software. Software even structures most of what we write! We don't just talk to each other, we tweet, email, message, post, search, etc. These structures each imply a specific set of phrase structures that can make sense.

Lately, it's hard to go even a day without reading some complaint that such and such was written by "AI" (an LLM). Why is this so obvious? Well, the core advantage that LLMs provide is that they don't compute. Inside an LLM, there is no arithmetic, no logical branches, no truth values. Phrases aren't generated to define or to resolve. They are generated to continue. Sure, we can direct the story to follow the steps of logical deduction, but that isn't anything like calculation. An LLM simply isn't invested in logic, precision, correctness, etc. the way we expect modern writers to be. It's not the em-dashes or the word choice that illustrates this, it's the fundamental perspective of the system.

We are sorely missing subjectivity. Natural language never was, and never will be, computable. You can't reduce a natural story to binary truth values without choosing an arbitrary perspective that resolves its ambiguity. The more precisely abstract our language gets, the more detached from reality our stories become. The more objective our assertions about reality are, the less relevant they can be.

My answer to this is to make the arbitrary choice of perspective a first-class feature. If we can explicitly decide what meaning is relevant, we should be able to weakly solve natural language processing. It seems like a pretty simple and obvious idea, but so far is easier said than done.

fasterik 2 hours ago||
I don't agree with the assumed equivalence between precision and objectivity. Language can be precise when describing a subjective perspective, and it can be imprecise or ambiguous when describing objective facts. The tendency toward increasing precision is a good thing, in my opinion. If anything, precision in language allows writers to tell better, more nuanced stories about subjectivity.
thomastjeffery 13 minutes ago||
Increasing precision is good to the end that is disambiguation. The problem is that that end is not always what language is good for. Metaphor is an incredibly useful tool, because it allows us to convey meaning with imprecise definition, but precise implications.

The meaning of an expression is its implication, not its definition. The implication must be decided by the reader. This is either done by strict definition, or by arbitrary inference. Inference is a powerful feature of language, because it expands the set implications that can be expressed without abstracting the language. Without inference and metaphor, we must instead create a tower of well-defined abstractions that rule over us; having already determined what implications are relevant: objective truth. With inference and metaphor, the writer/speaker can articulate their implications with familiar language; relying on the reader/listener to infer from the expected relevant perspective: subjective truth.

Essentially the tradeoff isn't whether or not you get precision, but whether that precision can be shared by the writer and the reader, or be managed entirely by the writer. Defined abstractions allow the writer to be unambiguous to anyone (objective), while inference allows the writer to offload that responsibility to the context and perspective of the reader (subjective).

Does that make sense?

pixl97 3 hours ago||
Eh, this seems somewhat right, but somewhat not right either.

Language has to do with our Monkeysphere, that humans over long periods of time in the past were limited to a very small subset of people they interacted with socially and closely. A few institutions likely had a large effect on your language like the church depending on where you were. After that it was the people you interacted with to stay alive. Because almost everything was in person or person to person transfer of information a lot of socially encoded clues were involved which lessened the need for well defined words.

Books were the first stage of homogenizing language as they could be shared over long distances and to many people, but more sequentially than latter forms of communication. After that radio and TV had a huge effect, for example the 'General American' used in broadcasts that was based heavily on a midwestern accent.

As we encroached on the 70s and 80s the previous technological advances and things like high speed interstates and trucking shrank America to something you could drive across in less than a week, and you could reach anywhere by voice nearly instantly. Suddenly people in California, Texas and New York all could be in the same meetings and local colloquialisms would need explained, so people would trend to a shared vocabulary.

It's also odd to me to say an LLM isn't subjective. Each LLM has it's own behavior, it's that there are like 20 or 30 big LLMs in all, and people are using them millions to billions of time so we're getting that one LLMs language everywhere. And that's why I disagree and will say natural language is computable, but it's also lossy and probabilistic. And for the most part it's single prompt and being ran by the user for the cheapest price possible.

calmworm 2 hours ago||
Reader mode required.
morninglight 4 hours ago||
Point your Duck at "VOA Special English"
ksec 3 hours ago||
I mean the subject is interesting but I have the say the design of the page is not only janky and needlessly complicated with animations.
calvinmorrison 4 hours ago||
My mum learned watching cowboy TV in the 60s and 70s. She's got some uh colloquialisms for sure
DenisDolya 4 hours ago|
Thank you, just at the right time.
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