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Posted by mertbio 5 days ago

More German than many Germans(mertbulan.com)
645 points | 491 commentspage 2
tomaytotomato 5 days ago|
A nice read,

Immigration has many pulls and with that comes all sorts of immigrants whether great, average and terrible.

Unfortunately Western countries and bureaucracies seem to have committed the usual sin of developing processes that:

- make it incredibly hard for good immigrants to migrate, contribute and naturalise themselves legally.

- at the same time leaving lots of gaping holes of exploitation for criminals and other immigrants who are just looking for a meal ticket or to enter illegally and abuse our high trust societies.

Couple this with a news and media setup that optimises for covering news of bad migrants whilst hardly broadcasting news about good migrants.

kioleanu 5 days ago||
There is one rule of thumb that I’ve noticed: if you are a reasonable person and integrate you will be treated as one of their own. Otherwise not.

Your article mirrors my own experience 1:1, it’s like I’ve written it myself. Apart from the citizenship process. Even though it was also 14 months long (eerie lol), I had to do a lot of noise about it, because they are processing applications out of order (some people got theirs in two weeks, some in two years, no rhyme or reason) - press, meetings with local politicians etc. Which helped my personal case but didn’t fix the problem at all.

Yasuraka 4 days ago|
> if you are a reasonable person and integrate you will be treated as one of their own.

You won't, even if you were born and raised here - 3rd generation Turks get treated worse after 60 years than Ukranians after 4, let alone someone with an arab name, all else being equal[1]. This is natural in almost all nations for its humans in all of them, but the rampant arrogance and hypocrisy is exceptional and one does no good reinforcing it.

[1] https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/ausbildung-migrationshinter...

throwaway2037 4 days ago|||
My hot take about Turks struggling to integrate: The didn't try hard enough. They held on to too much of their Islamic religion and culture. It didn't mix well with the primarily Christian religion and culture of Germany. The Ukranians have much more culturally in common with Germans which is why they have integrated so much faster.
Yasuraka 3 days ago||
You are describing assimilation, not integration, also disproven by the fact that the name alone is the only differentiator in this example. Plenty of justifications will be found ex-facto in any case, all are excuses.

I'm not claiming any nation to be above racism, in fact globally most are worse, but this one is really high on its own supply.

account42 3 days ago||
They are not excuses. If you move to a foreign country but 100% keep your own culture without taking up the culture of the host country then you have not integrated and the locals are right to not want you there.
Yasuraka 2 days ago||
The willful ignorance is also exceptional, I daresay, second only to the average US citizen.

So much for Günter Wallraffs legacy

Behemoth66 3 days ago||||
"3rd generation Turks" Because they are famously a case of not having assimilated to Germany but instead over-assimilated to an islamist-conservative Turkey.

"Q: Where would you live if you were a hyper-nationalist Turk? A: Germany"

account42 3 days ago|||
3rd generation Turks are by definition not integrated, otherwise they wouldn't refer to themselves as Turks.
nicbou 5 days ago||
This mirrors my own journey, although I have never submitted my citizenship application. I also came here for an internship and stayed. 11 years and counting.

Congrats on becoming a citizen. Having seen many of my friends go through it and accompanying some to their appointment, I know how big it can feel.

a2800276 4 days ago||
Thank you for this! As a German, it's a breath of fresh air to read something positive and it's definitely topped up my optimism account a little bit!
mindjiver 5 days ago||
Wonderful read and welcome to you! I'm also a new citizen to Germany since this winter, lived here over 10 years now. It's a great place to live, at least in the north - have not tried much else, but the complaining can be a bit tiresome. At least the part about complaining and then not doing anything about it. My home country is a bit more easy going but it's also 1/8 of the population and less diverse and with a lot less troublesome history - in the 20th century.

Just remember: Kreuz setzen ohne Haken! ;-)

arh5451 5 days ago||
I found it quite interesting you thought American companies are more hierarchical than German companies. I think in general it’s extremely company/industry dependent. Having worked in several industries, countries, and companies I would say that Germany tends to be quite age oriented where the USA is more results oriented which is then reflected in the hierarchy and perceived openness. I also think Hamburg and Bavaria are exceptions to the norm in terms of economic productivity and openness to businesses.
matsemann 5 days ago|
As a Norwegian working for a company that expanded into Germany, I also was a bit surprised about the author claiming Germany to have a flat structure. I found it very hierarchical compared to what I'm used to. Like, setting up a new business it's very all-hands-on-deck until established, but had people refuse to do stuff "beneath their role" or outside their responsibility, or to do anything unless explicitly ordered by their direct manager when asked by someone else.

Nothing wrong in that, really, just a bit of a culture shock when you're used to something working a certain way. It was on us to adjust.

pitchlatte 5 days ago||
i read it as a Hamburg thing. my experience is mostly with NRW and i don’t recognise anything of this article in it. hierarchical, conservative, suspicious.
sajithdilshan 5 days ago||
As an immigrant living in Germany I can only attest to what's written on the blog post. Just like any other country, there are all sorts of people in Germany and Germans are actually hard working people which is a bit more reserved that the rest of the world. The only F'ed up thing about Germany is the politics and the weather.
JSR_FDED 5 days ago||
Congratulations on becoming a citizen! It’s funny how being an outsider lets you see all the amazing things that locals take for granted.
lionkor 5 days ago|
As a born German, I do not take most of these things for granted! And of course I complain about all the things that need to be better.
xyzelement 4 days ago||
As an immigrant to the US I feel similarly. The country has been wonderful to us and the negative things we hear domestically and abroad just don't track with our experience at all.

The OP focuses on respect, admiration and gratitude and finds what to feel this way about the is focused on what he can contribute. These are keys to success and thriving in any society.

Had he come with a very different attitude of entitlement and resentment (super common among immigrants as well) he would have had a very different experience.

Good for him

Mashimo 5 days ago|
> I didn't hesitate to complain (with Lärmprotokoll) to my landlord.

True Alman spottet.

No loud noises on Sunday (mowing lawn, home renovations etc) I can get behind. But I truly don't get why Germans collectively dislikes shops being open on Sunday. If you ask into it, something about the fabric of the German family is at risk.

EdwardDiego 5 days ago||
I've not lived in Germany but visited routinely for longer periods when working for a company there, and the understanding I derived is that Germans have an expectation that the only things (with some exceptions like airport shops) that should be open on a Sunday are things you can do with your family and/or friends - museums, art galleries, restaurants, and, natürlich, stuff like city parks and things that facilitated Wandern machen (going for hikes), so while the grocery store in that small Alps town might be closed on a Sunday, the Seilbahn/cable car isn't.

It caught me out a few times when I'd go to buy a bulk of German confectionary from a Lidl or Aldi to take back home for colleagues and my kids, and of course, I was flying out on a Sunday, so they were closed, so I had to pay airport prices for them.

All that said though, even the stuff that was open on a Sunday would generally shut earlier than usual, because after all, it _is_ Sunday bru, and the trains ran on a sparser schedule which meant my attempt to go to the Eagle's Nest museum, ended up with me getting there just as it closed, and then realising that the next train back to Munich from Berchtesgarden was in 4 hours (IIRC), and my dinner with my colleagues was in 3 hours... But the locals were so lovely and patient with my poor German, and they directed me to catch the next bus to Salzburg, and then catch the ICE to Munich from there.

It blew my Kiwi mind that they're like "Oh yeah, the fastest way back to Munich is to just catch a bus into Austria" real casual like. Schengen is pretty awesome.

ncruces 5 days ago|||
Aren't you reading it the other way around? (I'm from another EU country where this rule existed)

Other people have the right to rest on Sundays too, so you force as many activities to shutdown as possible to make it so.

I don't really agree with the rule, by the way. Same thing as (in my country) all schools closing the exact same weeks which causes terrible holiday peaks on a bunch of other activities. Something we're also timidly abandoning, to great results (IMO) but which is not a popular change.

Mashimo 5 days ago||
> Other people have the right to rest on Sundays too, so you force as many activities to shutdown as possible to make it so.

Mhh, yeah I guess. I do love my Sunday shopping though.

jyounker 5 days ago|||
Having lived in Germany (and Switzerland) for fifteen years, I've come to really appreciate the Ruhetag. Having Sunday off gives a real rhythm to the week, and I really appreciate that there is a day where I'm not going to be running around between stores.
yitchelle 5 days ago||
Shop free Sunday is something to be protected. I visited my parents in Australia about two years back where shopping feels like a 24/s7 blood sport, relaxing on a Sunday to do non-shopping activities is really welcoming.
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