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Posted by tcp_handshaker 10 hours ago

U.S. used 'virtually all' of its long-range precision missiles during Iran war(www.cnbc.com)
319 points | 511 commentspage 3
infogulch 1 hour ago|
Probably needed an excuse to rotate our stock out.
haunter 10 hours ago||
>The U.S. Army has used up

So not the US. There is also the Navy, Air Force etc

Borderline clickbait

panzagl 1 hour ago|
This should be higher, the Army never had a lot of ATACMs to begin with as launching missiles at things is not really their job.

Doesn't make the points about this administration not having a real plan invalid though...

AxiomaticSpace 47 minutes ago||
From what I've seen the US has never really put much effort behind surface-to-surface missiles in the first place because when you have a massive and well-funded air force that's a lot better tool for executing long-range fires. Not to say that losing those missiles won't hurt if we get into a war in the medium-term (or want to supply more firepower to our allies), especially in a more land-based theatre like eastern Europe.
1-6 1 hour ago||
How is this information public knowledge?
chis 9 hours ago||
It might actually be for the best to stress the system in this way. It's not practical to keep a military based only around "stockpiles" that you're scared to use up. Modern combat looks like long wars of attrition where two countries compete to see who can burn through more missiles so you need to keep the actual supply chain active.

Hopefully they're able to learn lessons from Ukraine as well and pivot towards cheaper missiles and autonomous vehicles

xtiansimon 10 hours ago||
> “U.S. has used…”

Missing the ‘has’ part for “present perfect tense”, e.g. “a past action with present relevance”.

In an ongoing war.

Austiiiiii 2 hours ago|
What are you talking about? The war is over. It's more over than any war in history. In fact, the POTUS has already ended the war 38 times. /s
Jgrubb 10 hours ago||
What is there even to say about this? Where does one even begin?
rf15 10 hours ago||
Okay, let's start.

- A country, even as big as the US, is strictly, evidently, not exceptional.

- The US lost the majority of the wars it joined/started in the last 100 years and came home every time trying to sell it as a victory despite not achieving their war goals.

- You may have weapons or power of some kind, but every move you make costs you some kind of currency: time, material, energy, credibility, goodwill. You may have large amounts, but they're never infinite.

- Acts of raw destruction as mean towards a goal is often not ideal: change and control are "constructive" concepts, while bombs can only offer you guaranteed chaos. You MIGHT be able to steer that chaos afterwards, but it's not guaranteed and numbers do not simply improve your position here. (see: Iraq, etc.)

bluegatty 9 hours ago||
No - the Iran war is a total strategic failure, but the US is very obviously 'exceptional' - I'm not saying necessarily admirable, or more moral etc but it is hugely 'stand out' in terms of capabilities. That's just a fact of reality irrespective of all of the political and moral context.

- The US did not 'lose' the majority of the wars it started - it won most of them, and arguably failed to achieve strategic objectives in some.

- "Acts of raw destruction as mean towards a goal is often not ideal " - this is a misrepresentation of US doctrine for decades. Even in Vietnam the US did not pursue 'full war' and refused to do strategic bombing in North Vietnam for a decade. As soon as Nixon did (op: Linebacker) - basically, the US 'won' right away. They decimated N. Vietnamese ability in a very material way. Were that strategy to have been undertaken in 1967, the war would have had a completely different outcome, probably more like Korean detente.

- US is very careful in their campaigns, there are chains of authority, externalizations are always assessed. The rules of engagement may shift a but - but it's false to suggest it's 'arbitrarily destructive' in targeting, it's generally minimal.

If you want to see what 'destructive' is, just look at Russian engagement in Ukraine, or Assad in Syria, or Saudi in Yemen. They don't care what they hit, it's a totally different environment.

To this day Iran's Oil Infrastructure remains intact. Just let that sink in.

All of this is outside of any moral or whatever other consideration - it's just 'what it is'.

The 'important note' here is that 'Power Has Limits' and that's truly the defining characterization of this war. This is not 'America is not capable' is that 'capabilities have limits' - and they become very obvious in difficult ways if power is applied poorly.

The Generals 100% warned Trump of all of this - this conflict is not a military failure in that sense, this is predictable. It's the political apparatus pushing the boundaries. The Generals would have none of this.

roenxi 8 hours ago|||
> To this day Iran's Oil Infrastructure remains intact. Just let that sink in.

The US was going as far as issuing sanctions waivers to Russia to try and get oil to the market it was so worried about what the war in the middle east would do to prices. All the indications are they're desperate to preserve as much middle eastern oil infrastructure as possible, even to the point where they look like losers vis a vis Iran. No surprise if they aren't inviting tit for tat exchanges on oil infrastructure. And the Russia-Ukraine war had vaguely similar parallels, with Ukraine allowing transit of Russian gas through the country to Europe for ... I want to say at least 12 months. So clearly neither side was so lost in the battle that they thought disrupting the pipelines was a good idea.

That type of targeting discrimination seems to be fairly normal. Armies are only indiscriminate when they think that helps their war aims. Although what exactly the US war aims are in Iran is very much a guess, Trump was struggling to even lie consistently when he was trying to come up with one.

bluegatty 8 hours ago||
Yes, that's a fair assessment, but then general context is still one of very specific strategic targeting. And FYI it's not just about 'Oil Prices', the US has left many other strategic industries in place whereas by any other ugly consideration, they would just 'blow up whatever'.

I'm not sure how far the Administration would go but they are very strongly restricted by US Armed forces procedures and just norms.

Arodex 9 hours ago||||
>If you want to see what 'destructive' is, just look at Russian engagement in Ukraine, or Assad in Syria, or Saudi in Yemen. They don't care what they hit, it's a totally different environment.

Show us the difference with Vietnam (and Cambodia).

And the Caribbean.

bluegatty 8 hours ago||
The difference is deliberate and arbitrary attack of civilians at scale and total lack of concern - popularly, politically, operationally, and practically for casualties outside military targeting.

The notion one would even try to compare 'the Caribbean' - where USN is destroying drug running boats - which is arguably against some maritime laws but is nevertheless exceedingly acute, I think shows how wound up people are in the political context.

There is no relevant kinetic fallout in the Caribbean - it's an Elephant precisely stepping on a single ant.

Capture of Venezuelan Oil ... almost certainly illegal.

But that's a different thing

As for Vietnam - start by laying the context for why the N. Vietnamese imprisoned, tortured, killed 100's of thousands of political dissidents and civilians of all kinds, and continued that horrible repression for decades even to this day as they continue to crack down on mild dissent. The actual facts on both sides are actually ugly, but woefully misrepresented and the same utterly bizarre dual moral lens is applied ... a bit like in the Iranian situation as well.

Implied in the question is the despotism in plain site: why did N. Vietnam invade Cambodia? Against the will of those people? And murder and maraud in that territory?

The difference is between that, as a starting point, and strategic bombing of rural roadways (Ho Chi Min trail) etc., which ironically was in lieu of actually bombing North Vietnam which should have been done right from the onset, would have prevented a war, and saved 1/2 the population from a perennial nightmare and given the citizens some say in their future.

But it's also an example of the extent of the ability of superpowers to project power.

Arodex 1 hour ago||
>where USN is destroying drug running boats

>which is arguably against some maritime laws

You get it completely backwards: the US Navy is "allegedly" destroying drug running boats, and it is completely, totally, "inarguably" against maritime laws - and laws of war (but there is no war, right?) and basic law principles in civilized countries.

>it's an Elephant precisely stepping on a single ant.

It is not a cute animal simile. It is US Navy sailors commiting 200+ summary executions. It is burning alive and drowning. It is widows and orphans.

wookmaster 8 hours ago|||
>The US did not 'lose' the majority of the wars it started - it won most of them, and arguably failed to achieve strategic objectives in some.

I mean if we look at all recent wars, Afghanistan, Iraq, Vietnam and now Iran we completely failed in our objectives. We spend billions, kill a lot of people and get a lot of our own people killed and didn't manage to instill democracy anywhere. How is that not losing the wars? It's complete failure to do what we set out to do 3 times now in recent history.

bluegatty 3 hours ago|||
It's fair to say overall engagements were bad, but it's hard to argue that a military looses when it streamrolls the opponent, and then 'decides to leave'.

The US generally wins wars, but can fail on occupational and grander objectives, which are different things.

The US 'tied' in Korea, eventually 'won' in Vietnam but then quickly decided to leave - strategic failure), 'won' in Iraq but a grinding occupation left it a strategic quagmire but no total failure.

Middling intervention in Syria was effective in bringing down Assad and now there is a transition to 'something somewhat better'.

There was no fight to even win in Afghanistan as the Talibain was overthrown without direct intervention - the follow up was entirely occupational - and though it was a strategic failure, it wasn't a military defeat. The West just did not want to continue paying the cost of keeping the fighters at bay. That's a 'stupid set of decisions' which is different than 'losing'.

This is all different from Russian failure in Ukraine where it cannot meet it's military objectives.

Iran is shaping up to be a 'military tie' - because US is engaging from afar it' abilities are limited and is taking real losses ... and a pretty big strategic failure, having lost control over the Gulf, no 5th fleet presence in the Gulf, allies attacked, Iran emboldened. Bad.

rf15 6 hours ago|||
Hi, the guy with the original claims here: You can really argue this one either way - If you look at Wikipedia, the field seems fairly even, but when you start looking into the details, things don't look quite as rosy: There's a few "wins" that are literally just a plane getting shot down or similar, there's a lot of revolutions they were involved in (some turning out good, some bad) But as you've observed: the big, memorable ones they lost. even the ones Wikipedia claims as wins/mixed bags are sometimes consequences of an earlier battle that they lost. For example, Korea: the division counts as a 'win', because it happened during WW2 and the US were part of the victors of WW2. Defending the south in the Korean war counts as 'mixed' and gets thrown in with the lost counteroffensive of taking the north. You can play the numbers however you like here, it feels like.
ZeroGravitas 10 hours ago|||
> Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. - Dwight D. Eisenhower 1953
padjo 9 hours ago||
Eisenhower would be considered a woke commie by today's administration
rbanffy 7 hours ago||
I have been referring to myself as a communist more and more.1
tclancy 10 hours ago|||
That fools running a country who turfed out military experience for loyalty were completely blind to what they were doing? I had no idea that running out of missiles was a distinct possibility until Spencer Ackerman started beating that drum in his newsletter around the start of the conflict. Forever Wars (along with the pieces he links to) has been an eye opening read.
dgellow 10 hours ago|||
US adversary countries have to love everything that is happening. If you’re China you win by doing nothing, just let the US administration pillage the country
jeroenhd 10 hours ago|||
It bodes well for Europeans when the Americans begin their invasion of Denmark, at the very least. Not great for a potential Russia-USA war and Taiwan wouldn't get as much support if the Chinese invade would also be difficult, though.

The title says "virtually all" but the first paragraph says "much". The actual stockpile is probably larger than this news report would make it seem. It would be convenient for Trump and his Russia-loving cronies if it would appear that the USA has no more weapons to support Ukraine with, of course.

Many advanced NATO weapons being difficult to produce and only being available in small quantities is something that has been discussed before, I don't think that's news. The rate at which they're being spammed without much result at Iran is, but that's hardly surprising given the current people in charge.

pjc50 9 hours ago|||
"Play stupid games, win stupid prizes", international relations edition.

America is not happy when it is not at war. There has to be an enemy. The old WOT had finally run out of steam; people are coming out of college who were born after 9/11. Venezuela (and Latin America generally) made a good enemy for a while, but they were too easily defeated. But Iran? America has wanted a rematch since Jimmy Carter.

(A bipartisan problem, mostly, but propped up by pro-war media. The only people against it are a few Democrats, almost all of whom are women)

greesil 10 hours ago|||
Time to send in the ground troops. Nothing bad can happen. /s
nonethewiser 9 hours ago|||
One begins by looking at the sources which the article dies not substantiate.
bsenftner 10 hours ago||
This nation is sitting ducks? The only reason we don't have Red Dawn is nobody wants this nation idiots.
Mr_Eri_Atlov 1 hour ago||
Wild how it only took 2 years of a dementia ridden corpse king to fundamentally gut America's global power indefinitely
giardini 3 hours ago||
Can anyone verify this through secondary sources?
superkuh 2 hours ago|
If you watch CSPAN/etc it has been verified during congressional questioning of the current head of the dept. of defense.
bmitc 57 minutes ago||
And we've advertised it to the entire world. And we've destroyed our economy. And we've further isolated ourselves from the world, culturally, politically, and economically.

Good job everyone with the voting. All those people voted for "let's make things universally worse for everyone except billionaires in America".

resters 9 hours ago|
Not sure why anyone has a taste for the kind of butch, chest-pounding performative foreign policy we have these days. Not only does it not work, it's dangerous to national security.
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