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Posted by dzdt 3 days ago

Civilian plane crash in New Mexico tied to military GPS blocking(www.wired.com)
495 points | 276 commentspage 2
seatac76 2 days ago|
The loss is tragic but I’m sorry GPS jamming was not a factor here. There was a NOTAM indicating it’s going on, the pilots should have been aware and it appears when they reached out with a request the jamming was stopped.

It was a visual approach at a moonless night at an airport in high terrain, this was pilot error unfortunately.

inigyou 2 days ago||
Luckily, aviation investigations haven't concluded with "pilot error" for over half a century, or else there would be a lot more accidents as we never fixed any of the actual causes and just blamed the dead pilots.
wat10000 2 days ago|||
Sure they do. Go search recent NTSB reports and you'll see it. Normally it's described a bit more elaborately, e.g. "The pilot’s failure to maintain a proper glidepath during landing which resulted in a landing short of the runway." But there are plenty of modern reports that do nothing but blame the pilot.

Certainly it's a lot less common than it used to be. There's a bigger push to find underlying causes that can be fixed, and not just say "the pilot forgot to perform a crucial step out of the several dozen crucial pre-flight items they were supposed to have committed to memory, sucks to be them" or whatever. But sometimes it really is "the pilot did a dumb and shouldn't have," especially for smaller planes with less experienced pilots.

inigyou 2 days ago||
And why did the pilot fail to maintain a proper glide path?

If he was drunk, then sure, pilot error. If he was insufficiently trained, why did he think that he had a sufficient level of training for this flight? If he had too much get-there-itis, is there anything in the training that could help prevent that? Seems there is surely potential training changes relating to GPS dependence.

wat10000 2 days ago||
No reason is given. That quote is the entirety of the "Probable Cause and Findings" from the report in question.
Blazara 2 days ago||||
German Wings 9525 was labelled pilot "error" tbf
_moof 2 days ago|||
I'm sorry, what? Pilot error is absolutely a factor in contemporary accidents. It's the most common one, in fact, because we've rooted out almost all the other risks.
inigyou 2 days ago||
And why did the pilot make the error?
sokoloff 2 days ago||
I'll bet that the NTSB will list GPS jamming as a contributing factor. I agree with you that it's not the primary cause of the accident.
bogzz 2 days ago||
The ridiculously criminal government of the Banana Republic of Serbia last year used this technique to prevent drones from being able to take video of a 300,000+ person protest in Belgrade. They spoofed the GPS signal to make the drones think they were flying near the Nikola Tesla Airport nearby so that they would autonomously land.

https://ground.news/article/lazni-signali-rusili-dronove-avi...

roysting 2 days ago|
[dead]
hnburnsy 2 days ago||
From the NTSB today...

>NTSB Statement: The NTSB is actively investigating the crash of a Beechcraft King Air operating as a medevac flight near Ruidoso, New Mexico on May 14. The NTSB has not yet determined the probable cause or any contributing factors to the accident. NTSB investigators collect, validate and analyze all available evidence before reaching any conclusions. We encourage members of the media covering accidents under NTSB investigation to contact the agency with questions about the process or status of an investigation to help ensure accurate reporting. Read the preliminary report, which contains factual information gathered during the on-scene portion of the investigation, on our website:

https://web.ntsb.gov/investigations/?ntsbnumber=WPR26FA186

VoidWhisperer 2 days ago||
The final information on the crash almost reads like they hit the very top of the mountain - according to NTSB, they were about 200-250 ft from the summit, so it is possible they did still have visual with the airport until right before the impact. Whether or not GPS could've helped with this, I'm not sure - it might've allowed them to see where they were relative to the mountain better, since it was the middle of the night and so they probably couldn't see the mountain very well..
colechristensen 2 days ago|
Your GPS enabled flight computer will indeed yell at you VERY LOUDLY if you're about to hit a mountain. It will not allow you to get particularly close to terrain without noticing.
MSFT_Edging 2 days ago|||
I'm wondering what they could have done differently here. The report said it was a 0% moonlight night, extremely dark. No exact position from GPS, and visuals on the landing strip. That mountain peak would have likely been invisible from the pilot's seat.

What would have been the "skill issue" difference people keep mentioning? It's getting really frustrating how reckless the US military is with the skies. They keep putting people in danger. I can't help but think about the DCA crash due to the continuity of government drills.

There's no reason they should have been flying dark for a drill that night.

sokoloff 2 days ago|||
This is a judgment issue more than a skill issue.

GPS NOTAM'd as unreliable on a dark, moonless night?

Fly the ILS approach (or fly a visual approach along the track of the ILS approach backing up your visual with the radio signals). That will give you terrain and obstacle clearance all along the route using locally generated navigation signals that will be entirely unaffected by GPS jamming.

https://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/2607/06922IL24.PDF

plorg 2 days ago||
Per other comments the ILS approach was not available due to the local weather service being NOTAM'd as unavailable, couldn't set local altitude. The judgment call was effectively whether to take the flight at all, as there was effectively no instrument approach available and the visual conditions precluded VFR.
sokoloff 2 days ago||
The ILS approach being not legally usable as an approach due to a missing local altimeter setting does not make it unusable to back up a visual approach [or VFR arrival].

I would 100% (and have) take center's altimeter setting and fly the track of an ILS or localizer rather than "whelp, nothing can be done..." This was VMC; you don't need a local altimeter setting to be safe using the radio navaids; you would need it to legally fly the approach as an ILS approach.

colechristensen 2 days ago||||
>I'm wondering what they could have done differently here.

It appears there were too many sources of confusion. GPS jamming, moonless night, busy ATC, not planning on VFR before takeoff, 20 minute short flight, instrument approach disabled, young pilots, mountains, and perhaps others.

Flight safety is about removing entropy and there were several steps which could have been taken, including not flying at all because of forced VFR on a moonless night near mountains.

_moof 2 days ago|||
The "skill issue" is that they chose to press on instead of returning to base. Yes, the jamming was a factor, but making a decision to fly a visual into field surrounded by mountains at night is a bad call.
voidUpdate 2 days ago||||
"TOO LOW – TERRAIN" vwoop vwoop
inigyou 2 days ago||||
You say GPS-enabled. What about a GPS-jammed flight computer? Can that do it too?
colechristensen 2 days ago||
GPS + a topo map yelling at you for being too close to the ground is extremely simple, a very basic feature.

Dead reckoning (keeping track of position over time without an external source of truth) and radar altimeters are high level features that some avionics do have, but these are expensive and not expected to always be present.

Inertial navigation systems you'd find on missiles are precise enough that if you leave one running on a table in the upper floor of the building you can track the rise and fall of the building as it heats up and grows because of thermal expansion throughout the day (in other words, they are extremely precise).

So it depends.

rob74 2 days ago||
Unfortunately I can't access the article, but this video by Juan Browne (IMHO one of the most knowledgeable and no-nonsense aviation YouTubers) also provides a very good summary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dcyup4xVQuM

What I found shocking is that there are so few road ambulances in that region that medevac flights are routinely ordered for transporting patients to keep ambulances available in case there is a road accident (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dcyup4xVQuM&t=95s). Seems like a huge waste of resources to me...

2PqboPPmKegvanx 2 days ago||
Neither here nor there but that whole upper NE corner of the state only has a handful of hospitals - in part because there just aren't that many people who live there.

NMLEG map of counties and population | https://www.nmlegis.gov/publications/handbook/counties.pdf

wiki 2020 census map | https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/New_Mexi...

Ostrogoth 1 day ago||
I’ve spent a lot of time exploring that area of NM, and it’s incredibly rugged or desolate terrain, with low population levels that are very dispersed. Mostly ranches and wilderness.

There is a reason why the military does exercises there.

git-nebulous 2 days ago||
The civilian uses for GPS are obvious and as a pilot I'm more than pleased to make use of it. But... the military is jamming a military product that happens to have civilian uses. It's not flying the plane. That's like saying "heavy rain crashes car"
lettergram 2 days ago||
After reading the story, it seems like lack of training. I think training should assume GPS goes out (which it does), in this case they didn’t pull up when they saw “lights going out” as a mountain became between them and the airfield.

Air traffic control also failed here.

lbriner 2 days ago|
Air traffic control have a very specific remit and it isn't as comprehensive as people assume. You can have "no service", "radar service" and "full service" and what they will advise you about is limited, usually, to spacing or procedural errors like "you should be less than 220 knots".

A controller who has the capacity to spot something that seems off like a wrong heading or altitude might ask the plane if they are OK, but unless they are deviating from a flight plan in controlled airspace, they are more likely to assume VFR and pilot knows best.

bell-cot 2 days ago||
Critical bits of the article: This is an extremely rare cause of fatalities (in the US), and the fatal flight was very high risk without the GPS blocking.

> It's worth taking a closer look at what happened last May. While the Ruidoso crash was the first fatal accident in the US known to be linked to electronic warfare, there’s no reason to think it will be the last.

> Even absent GPS jamming, medevac is one of the most dangerous categories of civil aviation. (Kreindler, a law firm specializing in air crash litigation, says that medevac flights have an accident rate more similar to combat flying than to civil aviation.) Flights are often organized on short notice, and they fly into airstrips that might be unfamiliar to the flight crew, and because human lives are at stake, there is an incentive to fly when weather conditions are marginal.

> Some of those factors were at play on the night of May 13. At 11 pm, the crew was notified that they had to fly to Ruidoso to pick up a patient and bring them to Albuquerque. The pilots were captain Keelan Clark, aged 30, and first officer Ali Kawsara, aged 23. Clark had gotten his commercial pilot’s license just a year and a half before; he’d been promoted from first officer to captain the previous month. Kawsara had just two months on the job. He’d only worked cargo jobs before this one.

Arodex 2 days ago||
I have absolutely no love for the US Army under its current Secretary of "war", but here the problem was with the air ambulance pilot(s). Sorry to blame people who died, who do important service for remote places under hard time constraints, but there has been fundamental errors on their side:

https://bsky.app/profile/mikeblack114.bsky.social/post/3mrux...

rbanffy 2 days ago||
I find it a bit shocking they'd be caught by surprise by a planned GPS outage. The exercise happened as intended, and all aircraft in the affected areas should have received warnings BEFORE they even took off. These are not drug smugglers - they filed a flight plan before leaving the ground.
gosub100 2 days ago||
The automated weather service was also out. This made it difficult or impossible to use the ILS because they can't set the local altimeter. This was a swiss cheese chain of events. It was a moonless dark night so the mountains weren't visible.
SoftTalker 2 days ago|||
What is the normal fallback for local weather service failure? Divert to an airport with working service? Proceed, using the "nearest working" information?

How much does air pressure vary over a region, and how quickly does it change?

gosub100 2 days ago||
I think it would be "fly vfr" but the main issue there is the wind direction, not the altimeter setting. In daytime you can read the wind sock while airborne but not possible at night.
rbanffy 2 days ago|||
Would they take off if they knew GPS would be jammed midway through the flight?

Had they known they wouldn't be able to rely on GPS, all that back and forth with ATC would not be needed, and they'd already have a plan B and a plan C for navigating.

It's unfortunately all slices of swiss cheese aligned perfectly, but I'd still blame the military for poking extra holes on the GPS slice.

gpm 2 days ago||
> Would they take off if

medevac flight - there was probably some urgency.

SoftTalker 2 days ago||
Maybe. Urgency should not trump safety. A delay in transport is not worse than a dead patient, dead medics and flight crew, and loss of an aircraft.

And I am happy to be corrected but as I understand it, in the rural west more medical transport than you might think is by air. Distances are large, and population is sparse. You can cover more area with the same number of medics using a few airplanes instead of ground ambulances. So not all air ambulance service is critically urgent, unlike what we are used to in more populated areas.

rbanffy 1 day ago||
The losses were higher than if they hadn’t flown that night. But, then, they didn’t know GPS would be down when they were midway through the flight.
sokoloff 1 day ago||
They certainly should have known. The information about GPS jamming appeared as a NOTAM in their Foreflight (electronic flight bag application) briefing, which 14 CFR § 91.103 requires them to review before the flight.

We can't be sure whether or not they read the briefing, but the NTSB preliminary makes clear that they at least downloaded it to their EFB app.

inemesitaffia 1 day ago||
We also know that of they wanted GPS on until they landed they could have got it.
ofcrpls 2 days ago|||
https://youtu.be/Dcyup4xVQuM This was discussed during the initial reporting. While the GPS jamming is an important technical issue, the broader lesson may be pilot preparedness for degraded-navigation scenarios. This accident also highlights the ongoing debate over whether accumulating flight hours is adequately complemented by realistic defensive training for GPS-denied and other abnormal operations.

One technical point that initially puzzled me was why Spidertrax appeared to retain GPS coordinates while the FMS did not.

My understanding is that certified FMS GPS receivers use Receiver Autonomous Integrity Monitoring (RAIM) and other integrity checks. During GPS jamming, the increased noise and degraded signal quality can cause the receiver to determine that it can no longer guarantee a reliable navigation solution, resulting in a NAV FAIL or RAIM warning.

A tracking device such as Spidertrax, on the other hand being a glorified telematics grade positioning device, is designed for best-effort position reporting rather than certified navigation, so it may continue outputting an estimated position using noisy GNSS data and motion filtering, even when that solution is no longer suitable for primary aircraft navigation.

epolanski 2 days ago|||
I too take random's words on socials over the NTSB. /s

In any case the news (and ntsb report) points that they are tied, not responsibility.

yread 2 days ago|||
They are not in a disagreement. From the report:

SRR is serviced by two instrument approaches, the ILS or LOC RWY 24 and the RNAV (GPS) RWY 24. Both instrument approach plate notes section contain the following statement: “When local altimeter setting not received, procedure NA (Not Authorized).”

IFR approach was not possible, the flight plan was unrealistic.

asdf88990 2 days ago|||
Trust in governmental institutions is at an all time low.

Questions must be asked about how and why we got here rather appeal to submission.

hagbard_c 2 days ago||
[flagged]
curt15 2 days ago|||
The quotes are appropriate because only Congress, not executive action, can change the official name.
inigyou 2 days ago||
Congress has, through inaction, approved this
jonnybgood 2 days ago||
Not really. The official name is still Dept of Defense. The executive order applies a “also known as” because the POTUS cannot change the name. There’s nothing for congress to do because the name has not officially changed. The next POTUS can simply remove this order and it’s back to DoD.
quietbritishjim 2 days ago||||
It's very relevant because it otherwise would have been plausible that they were blaming the pilot to unfairly divert blame away from an entity they had a bias for.
basisword 2 days ago|||
You care enough to comment about it and ask them not to do it again because of, not only your feelings, but others too.
hagbard_c 2 days ago||
I care about keeping the discourse free from these virtue-signalling disclaimers, not about whatever you think you need to signal about. I consider it irrelevant whether you like or dislike this or that politician in this context and would prefer not to have such likes or dislikes interspersed between statements of fact. Let the facts speak for themselves and let polarising statements about politics and politicians be limited to discussions which actually concern such politics and politicians. That used to be how we discussed back in the day and it can be how we discuss in the future.
burnt-resistor 2 days ago|
The Phenom EMB-300 has/had a Dutch roll problem with loss of GPS, but there were some software updates that somewhat addressed it.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Notice/GENOT_7110_...

https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2016/Jun/CHLK_16-08_...

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