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Posted by xtreak29 5 hours ago

Discovery Loop(www.discoveryloop.com)
412 points | 259 commentspage 2
holmesworcester 3 hours ago|
Someone who left DeepMind over Google's agreement to provide military AI to the US government tried to get Jeff Dean to quit too:

https://turntrout.com/why-i-left-google-deepmind

Maybe this is what happens when someone with Jeff Dean's standing tries to quit?

TBH, I'd rather have Jeff Dean working on the creepiest-possible tech for ICE than joining the race to automate AI research. Automating AI research is terrifying.

tokioyoyo 2 hours ago||
If you check out some sub-tweets from people in the org, it wasn't really all butterflies internally for a while. Sorry, really don't want to name people and give examples.
asadm 2 hours ago||
> Automating AI research is terrifying.

what why?

kridsdale1 33 minutes ago||
Skynet.
maCDzP 1 hour ago||
I have used something similar. I set up a team of agents that researches, proposes, builds and audits. Then rinse and repeat. I have used it for different topics. It hasn’t made me a millionaire, but I haven’t lost money either - so that’s some sort of win, right? But I would not have been able to ideate, test at that speed and quality without an LLM.
skinfaxi 1 hour ago|
> It hasn’t made me a millionaire, but I haven’t lost money either - so that’s some sort of win, right?

I'm curious if that is before or after token costs?

wy1981 4 hours ago||
Jeff Dean, Sanjay, et al have achieved so much. I'm very happy for them. Truly deserving.

Sometimes I couldn't resist wondering if I'll ever do work that has a tenth of the impact of theirs.

jimbokun 1 hour ago||
> Between us, we have pioneered massive scale computing and led the creation of critical infrastructure, products, and foundational AI advances that the world relies on, including multiple generations of Google Search, Google Ads, Google News, Google Translate, Google File System, MapReduce, BigTable, Spanner, TensorFlow, Pathways, TPUs, AlphaChip, AlphaStar, AlphaCode, AlphaFold, Gemini, model distillation, mixture-of-experts model architectures, word2vec, sequence-to-sequence models, chain of thought reasoning, neural architecture search, and multiple generations of Large Language Models (LLMs) among others.

Not a bad combined CV.

nullsanity 3 hours ago|||
[dead]
gosub100 3 hours ago||
Gemini has done absolutely nothing for me. I can't even shut off the navigation feature on my phone using only hands free, when I get close to my destination. I have to take my eyes off the road, look down, and tap to exit.

Google's advanced AI cannot even exit a mobile app.

allthetime 3 hours ago|||
Antigravity + Gemini Pro absolutely RIPS through fullstack react + react-native apps / systems. I pay ~$20/month and I basically don't have to do my real work anymore. My time is freed up to learn systems programming and blender.
qlte 3 hours ago||
Oh nice have things stabilized with models/quotas and Antigravity is usable with the Pro plan again? I was getting a crazy amount of value out of Gemini CLI for “free” on my Pro plan but after the shutdown struggled to make agy work with the updated quotas/bigger models without instantly being rate limited and just started doing everything on Codex/Opencode Go.

I should give it another try…

allthetime 2 hours ago||
Yeah can't remember how long ago but it was running out after less than an hour - then they announced they were loosening restrictions and I've been able to easily get everything I need to done without hitting limits.

I don't do huge automatic project wide hands-off agent loops though. I spent a lot of time architecting my systems to be easy to generate code on top of with pointed & detailed prompts. So I'm not abusing context... YMMV

16bytes 2 hours ago||||
Jeff and Sanjay's contributions far predate LLMs and influence far outside of Google.

Jeff was a ACM Fellow in 2009 and published the massively influential MapReduce paper in 2004.

parthdesai 58 minutes ago|||
How does this comment relate to the parent comment?
ValentineC 5 hours ago||
I wonder if Jeff Dean facts [1] (I hope people remember the reference) will carry over to the new startup.

[1] https://github.com/LRitzdorf/TheJeffDeanFacts

hoyd 4 hours ago||
«Jeff Dean's PIN is the last 4 digits of pi.»

I had not read this before, but told many students the same about my PIN code and I a quiz about the last digits. Love it.

soVeryTired 4 hours ago||
0000 in base pi. Oh Jeff.
tcp_handshaker 4 hours ago||
Those are all fake, part of an internal Google narrative that overstates individual contribution, and obscures the work of large engineering teams.

Here are some Jeff Dean well sourced facts:

- Already part of engineering of Google indexing systems that lacked basic checksums and ran on non-ECC hardware, allowing silent data corruption.

- One of the authors of LevelDB a database with so many documented crash-consistency, recovery, and data-loss weaknesses for years. Just check their Github project. LevelDB current tracker contains unresolved crash consistency, recovery and corruption reports going back almost 12 years on GitHub

- In AI engineering technical lead, let TensorFlow lose researcher mind share to PyTorch, and caused Google fragmented landscape across TensorFlow and JAX.

- Had the people at Google who invented the Transformer architecture, but failed, to turn that lead into the first dominant public LLM.

- As AI engineering and VP management let Google Brain and DeepMind remain duplicated and internally competitive for too long.

- Let Noam Shazeer leave and then spent heavily to bring him back with nothing to show for.

- Part of Technical VP leadership who had Bard rushed to launch with factual errors in Google own promotional material.

- The first Gemini demonstration overstated how real-time and interactive the system actually was, being basically a fake.

- Part of the VP and AI technical leadership who had Google AI Overviews launched with weak source quality controls and repeated satire and low-quality web content as factual advice.

- Part of teams that launched AlphaChip performance claims that were difficult for outside researchers to reproduce and remain technically disputed.

- Jeff Dean public explanation of Gebru departure was contested and damaged confidence in Google scientific governance.

- Jeff Dean was part of the team at Google that removed or marginalized prominent internal AI ethics critics shortly before many of their warnings became product problems.

- Jeff Dean was one of the managers behind Project Dragonfly supporting censorship.

- Jeff Dean is part of the VP technical leadership approving Project Nimbus supporting an ongoing genocide.

shawn_w 3 hours ago|||
I suppose you think Chuck Norris Facts are fake too.
bonsai_bar 3 hours ago|||
You sound like you're quite jealous of him.
root-parent 3 hours ago|||
I had never heard of many of these, was surprised, went to research, and so far, the list seems correct.
dekhn 3 hours ago||||
Actually the list is technically accurate. So maybe it's sour grapes, but it's correct sour grapes.
twister2920 3 hours ago|||
not sure how you got that from a long list of criticisms
stephantul 4 hours ago||
I’ve always felt that the idea that science is bottlenecked and therefore needs more automation only works for a very narrow definition of what science is, and entails a very specific view on what it should be.
hobofan 4 hours ago||
> only works for a very narrow definition of what science is

And so does academia. It's just that instead of AI and robotics, PhD students are thrown onto problems that are in large parts slightly tweaked reconfigurations of similar experiments.

Especially in chemistry, biochemistry, material sciences there is a large space of discoveries that are barely "novel" in an intellectually stimulating way, but still highly valuable that can be explored orders of magnitudes faster than is currently the case.

stephantul 4 hours ago|||
That is true, I’ve seen people do biochemistry and geology work, and it did look very mind-numbing.

Then again, gassing rats and taking biopsies is not something you can do with AI.

roughly 3 hours ago|||
> Then again, gassing rats and taking biopsies is not something you can do with AI.

Also, like, let’s maybe _not_ make the “gassing and cutting living organisms open” AI? Let’s just leave that particular genie in its bottle?

smcg 2 hours ago|||
Unfortunately, that's most of science. I don't see these AI systems doing reproducible experiments in "meatspace" any time soon.
porridgeraisin 4 hours ago|||
Yep. A communications professor where I did my MS says a 200usd/mo claude sub (which ant gives for free) does as much work as 5 grad students. It's mostly like you said, trying out new ideas rapidly.
teamonkey 3 hours ago||
The purpose of hiring grad students isn’t to advance science, it’s to train experts.
porridgeraisin 2 hours ago|||
Yes. They have grad students too. This is just like having more grad students that don't need to be trained so the work you can get done is not bottlenecked by the number of people you can train.
pickleRick243 2 hours ago|||
It's 90% to advance science via cheap labor and 10% to train a small group of future experts who will hire grad students to 90% advance science via cheap labor etc. ...
tcp_handshaker 4 hours ago|||
Lets keep your comment out of the VC pitch deck shall we?
GodelNumbering 4 hours ago||
This is one of the interesting aspects the 'AI job loss' community doesn't account for. As the technology unlocks things, more startups are created. And even at a lower nominal engineer-to-work ratio, overall demand for talent still goes up. Ultimately, we are not a single group trying to achieve a common outcome, we are a collection of many groups trying to compete against each other.
throwaway0123_5 2 hours ago|
What percentage of people work at a startup though? Not just new/small business, which could include restaurants, local services, etc., but tech/science startups that would meaningfully benefit from AI.

I'd bet you could 10x the number and still be in low single digit percentages of the US workforce. And it seems pretty likely that AI-enabled startups will also employ less people per-startup.

If AI causes a white-collar jobs apocalypse, I don't think startups are picking up the slack, although it'll plausibly cushion the blow somewhat for top-performing tech workers.

4lx87 3 hours ago||
Discovery and optimization are very different processes. Optimization is the process of finding the shortest path to a goal. Discovery is the process of stumbling on new goals and redrawing the map of what's possible.

Ambitious goals and new discoveries happen via novelty-based search. Progress in scientific discovery is measured by how different/interesting the outcomes are, not by closeness to a predetermined goal.

Discovery is a creative search that preserves optionality, whereas optimization restricts optionality. In other words, you usually don't discover anything novel unless you're trying new things that don't appear connected to the goal in the first place. Would an ML optimization loop have discovered transformers?

xuehaohu 1 hour ago||
Big news aside, it feels exciting to see them leave and pursue startup. They could have stayed back, and retire
Johnny_Bonk 5 hours ago||
For sure made with Claude code for front end, but I’m excited to see where they go
roughly 3 hours ago|
Two to keep in mind with these kinds of things -

1. There’s some irreducible costs in terms of time and material in the physical world that are not amenable to the kind of optimization or parallelization or even just the raw speedup from Moore’s law or computational architecture improvements we’re used to with software. My experience is primarily in biology, where the examples here are things like “it takes 20 minutes for E. coli to replicate” - it has taken 20 minutes for E. coli to replicate for a billion years, and next year it will still take E. coli 20 minutes to replicate, no matter how good your software stack is. Similarly, it takes X amount of energy to grow enough E. coli to produce a meaningful result, and that energy costs money, whether it’s in the form of glycerine or heat or whatever you want, and that also won’t materially reduce in the same kinds of “orders of magnitude” sense we’re used to from software, which is what we’re usually expecting to make the economics of these things work out.

2. Complicating the above, physical systems are phenomenally multivariate - far, far more than you think, and biological systems especially are just unbelievably complex - which means the number of experiments and the length and duration of those experiments you need to run to get enough data to be reasonably confident you’re seeing genuine signal is Way higher than you think.

Combine those two things and what you get is a money furnace, even before you get to the AI model training part, which is Also a money furnace. There’s low hanging fruits in all this, there’s areas where automating the approach can be really valuable, but typically the moment you turn this machine on, you’re gonna start burning money at a rate that would embarrass a finance bro on a coke bender, and that’s effectively unavoidable because the real world is not amenable to software’s scaling laws.

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