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Posted by speckx 2 days ago

I'm switching my phone from Android to Linux(runarcn.no)
474 points | 517 commentspage 3
remix2000 2 days ago|
Switching from Android style Linux HAL to FreeDesktop style Linux HAL… I honestly think we need more Linux HAL options than just those two, when one is threatening to self-destruct and the other is arguably the single worst interface design ever conceived, by all measurements.
doublepg23 2 days ago||
Can you expand on this? I did follow the “Moblin/Maemo/MeeGo” forks back in the day and it struck me as odd Android pulled off the HAL layer but “Linux” was unable to.
remix2000 2 days ago||
Every [Linux based] OS usually needs some sort of HAL to wrap [ioctl] driver calls into APIs that can be consumed by more than one process at a time. Nokia/Moblin/Sailfish use Freedesktop style HALs, i.e. stuff like Wayland, Pipewire, anything accessible over DBus (which also implies extremely slow IPC by any standards; mach ipc on apple's darwins is probably faster [sobs]).

Basically I'm suggesting that we might need a whole new OS on top of the Linux kernel.

thyristan 2 days ago||
I guess we just need the DBUS developers to get their heads out of their asses, that's all: https://lkml.org/lkml/2015/6/23/657
remix2000 1 day ago||
Nah, DBus itself is plain bad interface design. Perhaps they could just piggyback off Binder if DBus itself weren't beyond saving. Also, despite a common sentiment online, it's not at all a complex process to implement a Binder userspace (given you have a sensible IDL in the first place, that is…)

Wrt/ torvie's narcissistic snarks linked above, the most important task for a kernel is still to facilitate fast IPC. The only viable forms of IPC in Linux are UDS and Binder. The former is slow and clunky. The latter is not a valid choice for DBus. So DBus devs have to manage slow, clunky, ill-suited legacy IPC. When a kernel can't be bothered to accommodate one of the most important operating systems built upon it, that seems really bad.

nine_k 2 days ago||
Since AOSP is open source, is it possible to reuse the Android HAL?
MrDrMcCoy 2 days ago||
That's what the Halium project does, but it would be better to have an equivalent, independent alternative.
charcircuit 2 days ago||
>I've become more and more dissatisfied with the path Google has taken with the Android Open Source Project (AOSP). Be it the dependency and insane tracking of Google Play Services

AOSP does not include nor depend on Play Services.

>locking down of device trees to hinder custom ROM development

Most manufacturers do not distribute these either. The user doesn't even have a pixel so it is not relevant.

>all the AI stuff being put into the system

The AI stuff is not part of AOSP.

>or most recently (and perhaps worst), removing the ability of installing apps per your own wishing - it's become sort of like a "death by a thousand papercuts" situation.

Again that is not a feature of AOSP, but one bolted in on top of it.

I think the author would benefit much more by using a different distribution of AOSP.

realusername 2 days ago||
Well AOSP doesn't run on a single phone on earth (not even the emulator) so you also have to take into account the reality of what Android is on the ground.

AOSP doesn't even include a functional keyboard nor a proper call manager nowadays

Gander5739 2 days ago||
But lineageos, grapheneos etc. are based on AOSP and do run on actual phones.
realusername 2 days ago||
They had to put so much work to make it run on actual phones that each project is kind of it's own thing.
aucisson_masque 2 days ago||
Aosp without Google play services is dead. You need it more and more to run apps.
dude741 2 days ago|||
I have run graphene OS on my phone for 3+ years and I don't use Google Play or Google Play Services. You use F-Droid to install Aurora Store and anonymously download real apps. I can use my bank apps and it's quite functional. My wife even doesn't complain about it. Camera is decent, not as good due to the software being non-proprietary, but decent.
aucisson_masque 2 days ago||
Many banks don't run with Google play services, and even with them on grapheneos some still won't run because of play integrity.

Don't tell me about grapheneos, I have a pixel phone and did run it for a few months with/without play services.

At the end, you're always going to absolutely need that one app that won't run without Gplay.

dude741 1 day ago|||
Yes, Google is trying their best to make sideloading apps harder and harder. They also are giving the ability to some apps to only allow to be run if it's verified by Google through their Google Play Store. At the same time, Google keeps losing lawsuits forcing them to open up and allow third party app stores. GrapheneOS also sandboxes Google Play and Google Play Services so you can turn it on and off difference access at your pleasure to prevent God mode and super spy mode, so this mitigates issues even if you use Google stuff. It's a losing battle, but the phone is the battle to fight over
ThePowerOfFuet 1 day ago|||
>At the end, you're always going to absolutely need that one app that won't run without Gplay.

Then you can install GMS into its own user profile with that GMS-dependent app, and when not using it you can log out of that user and put it fully at rest.

aucisson_masque 1 day ago||
Play integrity.
hagbard_c 2 days ago||||
Strange, I've been using it for about 15 years on many different devices and it works just fine. Maybe that is related to the fact that I tend to shun closed-source applications whenever possible? The few closed-source apps I do use - Swedish BankID, Deutsche Bahn 'Navigator', Dutch DigiD - also work as intended even though some of them - mostly the Swedish BankID - claim they 'need Google Services to work'. Click away the popup and it works just fine without it so that is clearly not true. On some devices I installed microG to see whether it does what they claim but while this seems to be the case I don't think it is needed for those keeping their devices mostly free from proprietary applications. This is not a hardship, far from it. Nearly all the types of applications I want to use are available as free software which also tends to make them ad-free, spyware-free and generally less of a nuisance than proprietary alternatives.
getpokedagain 2 days ago||||
This is only true of ye olde apps from shitty banks and the like.
gruez 2 days ago|||
>You need it more and more to run apps.

Realistically nobody is developing apps for linux phones, so the options are android or no apps at all.

alexpotato 1 day ago||
I've been using Linux as my daily driver on my main personal computers for years. You could say that I love Linux and it has treated me very well.

That being said, I consciously chose an iPhone b/c I want my phone to "just work". I had a Blackberry Storm for a year and it was buggy, had to be restarted everyday just for it operate etc etc.

The iPhone has always been great. It just does what I need it to do b/c clearly someone cared about making sure the end user experience was phenomenal. While Linux has gotten better over the years, it just doesn't feel the same.

In addition, I recently started using a MacBook and the fact that the phone sync WITH THE LAPTOP makes the iPhone an even bigger plus. For example, if I set keyboard shortcuts on my phone they also work on the laptop. Photo sharing is a breeze and even integrated iMessage "just works".

Now, I don't fault people for wanting Linux phones. It's just not right for me.`

MarkWayneNewton 2 days ago||
Shoutout to Purism... if you got the loot.

https://puri.sm/products/liberty-phone/

filmgirlcw 2 days ago||
Anyone looking at this should recognize that the hardware itself is nearly a decade old (and has performance of a mid-range Android from 11 or 12 years ago), the software is buggy and not fully baked (the version of Debian they JUST moved to has lost normal Debian Security team updates and maintenance has moved to the Debian LTS team) and the company has a history of extreme delays in shipping and customer service.

People can spend their money however they choose, but I wouldn’t spend $1800 on a phone like that if you want to actually use it as a phone. And before buying it as underpowered “portable” Linux computer (the battery life is not good even though I hear suspend mostly works now), this is still outrageously overpriced even by current hardware pricing.

seb1204 2 days ago|||
All valid points to consider. I'd like to add that I'm for one don't need the latest and greatest apps, don't run games so email, SMS, messaging, YouTube or Netflix are all that are needed in terms of compute.
MrDrMcCoy 2 days ago||
I'm surprised even those things work for you considering how unbearably slow Phosh and Linux apps are on the Furiphone with much more modern everything.
fsflover 1 day ago||
The slowness of Phosh is purely a consequence of the current, unoptimized software state. When I run Waydroid on PureOS on my Librem 5, it feels much smoother, despite being another layer on top of the OS.
seba_dos1 1 day ago||
I bet the vast majority of that slowness people complain about comes purely from GTK renderers. A motivated contributor could do wonders there.
tweetle_beetle 2 days ago|||
I find it interesting to track the reality of using these free-er devices well after launch. Sadly it always seems incredibly painful and hinted at post-launch improvements tend to be small if they come at all.

https://forums.puri.sm/t/each-update-makes-my-librem5-worse/...

handedness 1 day ago||
I wish these devices were ready to be viable alternatives for anyone not possessing a religious extremist's level of zeal for it, but they's still so far from ready. It's a shame, since we need something like this to be viable.

The promise of, 'it's FOSS and these issues will be addressed,' sure didn't pan out with the PinePhone Pro, and it isn't panning out for the Librem 5. And that's setting aside hardware specs that would have been challenging over a decade ago.

It turns out that when the basic user experience is terrible, adoption rates are almost non-existent, and therefore nobody develops for it. The companies themselves have also done a seriously insufficient job of supporting their devices.

seba_dos1 1 day ago||
I'm getting tired of all this exaggeration. I don't think there's any significant component in the Librem 5 that has even existed a decade ago already. Perhaps the audio codec. Sure, it can be underwhelming today when it comes to performance, but it's still usable and was absolutely nowhere near "challenging" back when it was fresh - also, the software got significantly more usable and performant over time. I have recently booted an image from around 2020, the progress was stunning.
handedness 1 day ago||
Then read more closely. I didn't say the components existed a decade ago. The performance level of that SoC would have been challenging to get what typical phone users would consider a good experience out of a decade ago. The 2016 Pixel 1, for example was a much higher performance device. Apple's iPhones from that era required considerable tradeoffs to achieve the performance they did.

Some owners apparently disagree with you that the Librem 5 still usable. One, who shills for it tirelessly, states the need to disable JS to render some modern sites, a tradeoff he's happy to make, and that's his right, but to recommend something with such a heavy caveat as the solution to nearly every problem is inane. If you're looking for exaggeration, there it is.

There are valid reasons very few people use them. The situation won't get better by pretending the device is something it isn't. We need an open modern device, and the Librem 5 just isn't it, despite the loud assertions of a few to the contrary.

seba_dos1 1 day ago||
Sorry? Pixel 1 was a 2016 high-end mainstream phone that costed about the same as a niche and low-volume Linux phone in its crowdfunding campaign just a year later. It's actually fairly similar spec-wise to Librem 5, with exception of its noticeably more powerful GPU. Both these phones have some features the other doesn't.

Some owners disagree, others agree. For what it's worth, I don't disable JavaScript on my phone's browser.

handedness 1 day ago||
So, a 2016 flagship phone available for purchase in 2016 benchmarks at about 2x the Librem 5, not factoring in the noticeably more powerful GPU, as you mention. The Pixel 3a, a midrange phone that shipped in 2019, opens that gap up considerably. By the time many (most?) people got their Librem 5, the 3a was already an old device.

Of course, I don't expect a low-volume crowdfunded niche Linux phone to hit a major OEM's price/performance targets. Nobody should.

What I don't see a good way around is framing it as anything other than low-to-midrange performance chipset even in its day (whenever that actually was). Which is fine, tradeoffs were made, but tradeoffs they were. Something can still be viable for a small subset of people, while ultimately quite long in the tooth for the broader market.

I'm glad you're happy with it as a device. Thanks for posting your photos.

axus 2 days ago|||
Most distributors are based in the US with the exception of large integrated circuits that are made in a variety of countries where those companies do fabrication (US, Taiwan, South Korea, Japan); an example is the NXP CPU we use from their fabrication in South Korea.

Boards:

M.2 Modem Module China, inquire for USA/EU options

M.2 WiFi/BT Module India, inquire for more options

It's not going to win the market, but I applaud anyone providing more choices.

joey64 2 days ago|||
[flagged]
sroerick 2 days ago|||
Even if you're sour on American exceptionalism, this seems like a valid and good product to me, both from a privacy standpoint and from an ethical labor standpoint?

Am I the only one who remembers the suicide nets at Foxconn?

lstodd 2 days ago|||
[flagged]
pdabbadabba 2 days ago|||
As an American, I also find this repulsive.
hamper653 2 days ago||
[flagged]
lenerdenator 2 days ago||
That's more of a German/Austrian thing, really.
hamper653 2 days ago||
Are you telling me the US don’t actually make anything, not even their guns?
lenerdenator 1 day ago||
No, I'm telling you that a lot of guns, particularly pistols, sold here are made in either Germany or Austria. Well, more Austria.
asah 2 days ago||
the right answer is to deliver a usable SECOND device which happens to be linux based, and which has serves a purpose. Then over time, apps get ported.

realistically, this device would need to tiny to justify the extra weight, device-to-keep-charged, etc.

one idea: make it wifi-only and tether from your primary mobile device. This skips all the carrier nonsense, to focus entirely on the core use case(s).

mike_hock 2 days ago|
I already have a second usable device and I don't mind the extra weight that much most of the time. It's called a laptop computer.

As soon as we get to a point that Linux on the phone works at all, I'm happy to switch completely.

Here, "it works" literally just means it works. Not "GPS doesn't work," "camera only half works," "interop with Android/iOS apps that you're forced to use doesn't work." That doesn't mean "it works." And of course "only works for 2-3 years and then the device gets abandoned" doesn't mean "it works" either.

penguin_booze 2 days ago||
I'm all for using a Linux phone. The caveats thereof are mentioned in this thread.

I've a wish list of one, though: make the Web the primary GUI front end. Essentially, apps are a specialised browser window. That way, I can program (both the front- and back-end) in plain text, just using regular Linux tools and a text editor -- no bloatware and gargantuan IDEs mandated.

jodrellblank 14 hours ago|
Remember when that was a thing and then its developers killed it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefox_OS

Eueudhsbsj32 2 days ago||
I'd love to do this, but sadly I don't see it happening unless my lifestyle significantly changed to the point where I wasn't frequently traveling to new countries.

There are just too many very useful services that only work with Android/iOS. Take taxi apps for example. I've used over a dozen in the past few years, many of them local to a specific country or region that made getting around much much easier.

toastal 2 days ago|
I‘m lucky that my part of the world doesn’t yet require apps for taxis & they accept cash. App users often end up paying more if they don’t know even basic negotiations.
Eueudhsbsj32 2 days ago|||
In Thailand? I guess it depends where you are. I've been in 20+ provinces and speak some Thai, but it's still so much easier using grab/bolt/lineman/muvmi and not having to explain the directions.
emptyfile 1 day ago|||
[dead]
dotfrag 2 days ago||
May as well just get an old school Nokia and skip the smartphone technology all together. Get yourself a nice flip phone and go back to the early 2000's. If you need to do something online, just bring your laptop with you - some are so small that they're easy to carry around in a backpack or side bag.
colourclash 2 days ago||
Or a Commodore phone. They're pretty snazzy.

https://commodore.net/callback/

LtWorf 2 days ago||
You cannot get an old school nokia because 3g networks are gone, so they won't work.
jbstack 2 days ago||
I think they meant old school style rather than literally a Nokia from 20+ years ago. For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_2660_Flip
bigpeopleareold 2 days ago||
I introduced myself to this space a couple of weeks ago with a PineTab2. I bought it for reading but some tinkering. I am running Plasma Mobile on it. It's rough, but OK (and can't expect much from the hardware.) I don't know what the user experience out-of-the-box though. While I can run some 'important' apps in Waydroid (e.g. bank app in Norway), smartphones are not that interesting. I never wanted one, but it's increasingly something you have to have anyway and I usually don't realize it became so integrated in life (funny this comes up - I had a dream forgetting my phone and not knowing what to do next)
wishfish 2 days ago|
I haven't used it myself but every now and then, I'm tempted to try a Furiphone. Just from what I've read, it looks like the easiest out-of-the-box Linux experience on a phone. Does anyone here have direct experience with it?
jaidan 2 days ago|
Yes. I have been daily driving one for almost 2 years. No it's not as polished as an iPhone of Samsung, but it also doesn't have the backing and history those phones have. In the time I've had it, the improvements have been huge. Some say it's a bit laggy - I don't think it is, I think this is down to not having animations to tide you over between this view and that view. It works. It can run banking apps in Android. It doesn't have to run android. It's a 6 core CPU. The later models have 8GB ram (mine has 6GB and it's fine). I have tried Pinephone and found that to be horrifically slow. I like that I can write my own apps and also use a mouse with it if I want - then you have the dock to use a monitor. Out of the phones mentioned in this article, it sounds like the Furi phone would out perform most of them.

I figure supporting this effort is my little way to make a change in the world and help bring freedom back to our devices, which I now have :)

wishfish 2 days ago||
Thanks for the mini review. That does sound rather encouraging.
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