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Posted by mapping365 1 day ago

Americans are rallying against data centers. Surprisingly few are getting built(www.cnn.com)
50 points | 143 commentspage 2
woah 1 day ago|
It's sad. For all the lamenting that the US is losing industrial capacity (or lost it long ago), we can't even handle some of the lightest industry possible. A big building that hums and releases slightly warm water, and the only sector in which we could still be called a world leader.

Instead of trying to find property tax arrangements that work to give municipalities a big payoff, and power supply arrangements that could be an opportunity to boost the green and nuclear sectors, we have political hobbyists jumping on a bandwagon of misinformation.

kdheiwns 1 day ago||
All hours humming is absolute torture and anyone who dismisses it has lived a very privileged life. Low humming penetrates walls, goes through ear plugs, and can be felt by the body. It carries for miles. It's inescapable. It makes it impossible to focus. It ruins sleep and destroys health. If I were the CIA and I wanted to demoralize a population and also cause a violent uprising, I'd have low bass humming constantly howling in the background within earshot of residential areas.

Years ago, I lived in a town where low humming would start up in the early mornings and go for hours. It drove me insane with the back of my mind trying to figure out what was causing it while simultaneously trying to ignore it and failing. I moved far away but sometimes I hear a rumble that goes on a little too long and that sense of dread starts to creep back into my mind.

Dylan16807 1 day ago|||
A building that makes no physical products and has barely any workers isn't the kind of industry we lament losing.

But I would say datacenters are fine if they're prevented from screwing up electricity prices and have proper pollution controls.

inigyou 1 day ago||
Why wouldn't we lament losing it? If all else was solved, a DC is just as valid industry as any other. The fact that the provided service is nonphysical doesn't matter - every industry is different. Should probably pay taxes though, and not terrorize the neighbors.
Dylan16807 1 day ago|||
The reasons to care about "industry" in particular are process knowledge and highly skilled labor and supply chains. Datacenters have very little involvement in any of those. And they don't bring many jobs.
inigyou 1 day ago||
So basically your opinion is that data centers should not be illegal. Great! Let's start by dismantling the one serving your internet connection.
Dylan16807 1 day ago||
> So basically your opinion is that data centers should not be illegal.

Huh? Sure but that's not what I was talking about?

> Let's start by dismantling the one serving your internet connection.

There's a huge gap in explanation for how you got here. But home internet connections aren't served by data centers anyway.

inigyou 1 day ago||
You just said there's no reason the government should care to allow data center construction. Any DC, not just AI DCs.
Dylan16807 1 day ago||
No I didn't...

I just said it's not relevant to "the lamenting that the US is losing industrial capacity".

bofadeez 1 day ago|||
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gessha 1 day ago|||
If only datacenter developers started with the tax and power arrangements we wouldn’t be where we are.

If only the LLM-peddlers didn’t slurp up all tech supplies using VC money leaving regular people scraping up a small fortune for a heavily used DDR3 1GB stick, we wouldn’t be where we are.

palmotea 1 day ago|||
> It's sad. For all the lamenting that the US is losing industrial capacity (or lost it long ago), we can't even handle some of the lightest industry possible. A big building that hums and releases slightly warm water, and the only sector in which we could still be called a world leader.

No. Data centers have very, very few positive externalities for the people who live around them. They employ very few people, use a lot of infrastructure and resource, to provide services for people far from the community.

And on top of that the technologies they enable are loudly marketed as things that could destroy us all, or at least take most of the well-paying jobs.

If they're so great to live by, build them in Atherton.

inigyou 1 day ago|||
Most industry doesn't bring positive externalities for those nearby. What does a paper mill bring?
acdha 1 day ago|||
They used to bring lots of jobs which didn’t require specialization. That’s not saying they didn’t have real negative impacts but that people were more willing to accept that as a tradeoff when it was a middle-class living for an entire neighborhood. Data centers are getting resistance now because anyone who lives nearby is getting pollution and higher prices with no compensation: they’re not going to work there and it won’t employ enough people to even boost home values.
inigyou 1 day ago||
They should pay high taxes or something. Or come with a swimming pool powered by waste heat.
acdha 1 day ago||
Sadly we’re at the point where it’s a controversial position to argue that they shouldn’t receive tax cuts. It’s impressive how successfully faux-libertarian propaganda has been at breaking support for the idea that companies should pay for their impacts on others.
bofadeez 1 day ago|||
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threatofrain 1 day ago||||
Or why not build then in China? Isn't that the better solution? Are you okay with that backyard?
bpodgursky 1 day ago|||
The point of industrial capacity is a positive externality for the country not that it makes someone's backyard prettier.
palmotea 1 day ago||
> The point of industrial capacity is a positive externality for the country not that it makes someone's backyard prettier.

Yeah, that' true. What's the problem with building them in Atherton, then? The nation will get the same positive externalities if they're built there.

Hell, build ones ringing the houses of Sam Altman and Dario Amodei. Larry Ellison has a whole island that could be filled with data centers. Seems like those are the best places for them.

Everyone wins, right?

I'm tired of the "some of you may suffer, but that's a price I'm willing to pay" BS.

bpodgursky 1 day ago||
Technologists would be thrilled to build them in California? This is such a weird and fake criticism, California has driven manufacturing and industry out of the state, SF tech companies don't want to build in Nevada, they are forced to by regulations.

Like, none of the things you proposed doing are legal in the jurisdictions mentioned. It is NOT LEGAL for Sam Altman to build a hyperscale data center in his backyard. It is NOT LEGAL for Larry Ellison to build a hyperscale data center on his island.

It's bad to criticize people for not doing things the legal system prohibits them from doing

gamblor956 1 day ago|||
CA has one of the largest manufacturing sectors in the world. 4th biggest economy, and still in the top 10 without tech.

And that's after a decade of companies "abandoning" the state.

palmotea 1 day ago|||
> Technologists would be thrilled to build them in California?

I'm certain none of the people actually ordering these things would be thrilled to have them anywhere near where they actually live. If they could build them in California, they'd find some rural area or poor neighborhood to drop them in.

> Like, none of the things you proposed doing are legal in the jurisdictions mentioned. It is NOT LEGAL for Sam Altman to build a hyperscale data center in his backyard. It is NOT LEGAL for Larry Ellison to build a hyperscale data center on his island.

Oh, how very convenient for them.

How about they sic their lawyers on California to make it legal, instead of some rural county government? Get an initiative on the ballot rezoning a billionaires' actual places of residence and adjacent land for datacenter construction, and flood the airwaves supporting it. Make some campaign contributions!

thefz 1 day ago|||
A hum but 24x7 is devastating, and even a very little increase in water temperature can kill local fauna. Additionally you are occupying public space for a private profit.
ransom1538 1 day ago||
You are a voice a reason.
chermi 1 day ago||
I for one am not surprised.
BoggleOhYeah 1 day ago||
It may have been the AI CEOs bragging that they’re going to take everyone’s job away.

Maybe one day, Silicon Valley will learn that their insufferable arrogance is not a virtue for everyone outside of their bubble.

threatofrain 1 day ago|
You can see this as an American thing if you want... but you might look at the rest of the world to ask whether you're trying to convince the world to un-invent gunpowder.

If China gave superior paid offerings we might just start transferring all our data over to them instead. Anyways, have we considered building our compute infrastructure in China's backyard instead?

BoggleOhYeah 1 day ago|||
I’m not asking anyone to do anything.

I’m saying the AI industry created their own problems by thinking the general population would eat their shit with a smile like their sycophants do.

For a bunch of people that considered themselves smarter and better than the general populous, they don’t understand people very well.

inigyou 1 day ago|||
All your comments are just China China China China China.

AI as envisioned by billionaires is pretty stupid. I think we'd be better off if we tricked China into building it.

bofadeez 1 day ago||
[flagged]
inigyou 1 day ago||
I see the China China China China China account is an alt of the Fable Fable Fable Fable Fable account.
bofadeez 1 day ago||
Have you tried Fable yet? It's amazing!
0xbadcafebee 1 day ago|
Interesting video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bbe-Ev-Yns) explains how water consumption is a nearly fixed unit per DC and will be the major limiting factor in DC growth. The physics of heat removal requires water at one stage or another (evaporative cooling at the DC, or cooling the power plant to generate power to dry-chill at the DC) and we have a finite amount of water.

Even if people weren't protesting DCs, we would hit peak DC when we run out of water, which isn't far off. A major drought will likely disable large amounts of the economy that depends on AI that depends on water.