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Posted by willcarkner 6 hours ago

Launch HN: ProvenMetal (YC S26) delivers circuit boards in days instead of weeks(provenmetal.com)
Hey HN, we’re Will & Johnny from ProvenMetal (https://provenmetal.com). You send us design files or specs and we give you assembled boards domestically in days.

The US produced 30% of PCBs globally in 2000, now they produce 4%. Chinese manufacturers have completely dominated this space at 55% of global production.

Now, the need for a domestic PCB supply chain is higher than ever before, yet the infrastructure has been dissolving over the last 2 decades. What is left is mostly small family run manufacturers (CMs) that have been operating in largely the same, labor intensive way since the early 2000’s.

When you place an order through a CM it typically takes several days to receive a quote and complete design for manufacture review, and then you have to source all of the components (the hardest part) and bare boards yourself, then wait anywhere from a few days to several weeks for the assembly and testing of those boards.

We started off assembling circuit boards out of a garage with prosumer grade equipment (NeoDen YY1, Glenbrook X-ray, solder paste stencils, and manual rework stations). We believed that by owning the manufacturing process, we could turn all the front of house automations inwards. But here’s the thing… manufacturing circuit boards with prosumer grade equipment out of a garage takes a huge amount of time. Suddenly we were spending 90% of our time assembling circuit boards instead of growing the business. We were completely capacity constrained, with fancy software automations that are not the binding constraint at low volumes.

Then we got our heads out of the weeds, took a step back, and realized that we were trying to solve the wrong bottlenecks.

These manufacturers are good at manufacturing and terrible at the front of house (quoting, DFM review, and part procurement). When you look at the full process, you realize that assembly is not the bottleneck. So we stopped trying to solve the problem that we can’t solve at this stage.

We measured the bottlenecks and nailed down the ones that we are best positioned to solve right now.

When a customer wants a domestically manufactured circuit board, it is not a straight forward process. We are making that process easy through front of house automation. A customer gives us their design files, and we automatically procure components, and co-ordinate bare board fabs and assembly houses to get quotes, design review, and manufacturing completed in a very tight loop.

How we solve part procurement (you can’t assemble boards with no parts!): When a user places an order with us, our system automatically sources their bill of materials across US and overseas distributors. However, when we work with customers during the design process, our plug-ins interact with KiCAD and Altium, sending the BOM to our ordering platform, which allows us to automatically procure components before layout is finalized.

KiCAD plugin: (https://github.com/proven-metal/provenmetal-kicad)

Altium plugin: (https://github.com/proven-metal/provenmetal-altium)

This enables us to order long lead time parts in advance, suggest alternatives if parts are out of stock, and solve the biggest bottleneck in the process. We store parts in our hq in SF, and then kit the boards and route them through our network. We also do long term storage of parts for long lead time items.

How we solve endless emails: Every manufacturer wants the same information in a different shape. There’s usually a few days of back and forth emailing to achieve clarity. We’re building a profile per manufacturer and sending the order to fit their requirements. This may sound trivial but it removes a multi-day round trip on most orders, which on a quick-turn build is a meaningful share of the time.

How to solve design review: Each manufacturer has individual capability sheets, and so we have a heuristic harness that Fable 5 uses to check the board for DFM issues. We’re building a streamlined process for end-to-end pcb manufacturing, but is that enough to solve the supply chain? Not a chance. Capacity is the problem, and no amount of smart software will solve it. We’re extracting real slack from the system today, that slack is finite, and at some volume the only remaining move is adding physical capacity. We think that’s where this goes.

We charge a simple margin on the order value depending on order complexity with fully transparent quote breakdowns. We took our first paying order in less than a week and we’ve done roughly $70k across 11 orders in 6 weeks.

We are very interested in your opinion. We’re working in a problem space that has problems everywhere, we’re constantly pulled in wild directions regarding which problems we solve and how we go about solving them. What do you know that we can learn from?

150 points | 104 commentspage 3
yesod 3 hours ago|
The "Capabilities" section was not what I was expecting. Layers, via sizing, HDI - where's the details?
willcarkner 3 hours ago|
Updating that as we speak.
throwaway672312 5 hours ago||
I work in a building with a board assembly line that sits idle most of the time. They have tried securing outside contract work to fill in the gaps. No takers yet.

The only domestic drivers for board fab and assembly are autmotive and defense. They already have their supply chains running.

willcarkner 5 hours ago|
Makes sense. Is it that most of the time is spent switching jobs or that there's just not enough jobs going through it?

You're right that automotive and defense make up most of the demand. We also see demand from teams who can't use JLC/PCBway due to the difficulty of cosigning parts outside their catalogue.

victor106 2 hours ago||
Any resources to learn how to design a circuit board?
willcarkner 2 hours ago|
Youtube tutorials are pretty great to get started
qphe95 5 hours ago||
You guys should really be making an end to end PCB machine, sourcing the parts and part inventory for custom PCBs really should be the responsibility of the end user.
willcarkner 5 hours ago||
Possibly, but our users find value in not having to kit, store, or ship parts to CMs.
qphe95 4 hours ago||
I'm skeptical this is a cost effective for low volume prototyping which is where the speed of made in America matters.
asadm 5 hours ago||
whats the closest to this that exists today? (??? + pick and place?)
qphe95 4 hours ago|||
I'm not the expert but Gemini doesn't say anything exists besides the Voltera V-One (which obviously doesn't work for complex PCBs). I am imagining something like a PCB microfactory the size of a container (or even smaller) that completely handles PCB etch and drill, solder paste application, PnP, baking, and testing.
willcarkner 4 hours ago||
That would be super cool. Difficulty comes with multi-layer PCBs, hard to find a solution for laminating.
willcarkner 5 hours ago|||
PCBA lines are largely automated as of today, issues start when you do high-mix work. Most time ends up being spent switching between jobs and programming machines, meaning that tool usage time is low.
polishdude20 3 hours ago||
JLCPCB can make boards in less than 7 days easily and for non drone and defense companies.
otekengineering 4 hours ago||
how does it compare to https://www.circuithub.com ?
willcarkner 4 hours ago|
Circuit hub has something very interesting in the works. They're a few steps ahead of us.

We however plan to own the full stack, from design to board bring-up and testing. We believe that design is becoming commoditized with AI tools, but these systems need manufacturers that are involved from the start to bring down lead times.

otekengineering 3 hours ago||
what do you mean by in the works? i've used them for years and they were in YC over a decade ago

sounds like your goal is to be an embedded systems job shop based on AI instead of engineers? What's your value over existing AI-accelerated job shops that leverage existing quick-turn domestic PCBA suppliers? as a not-so-random example, https://otekengineer.com/

willcarkner 3 hours ago||
Yes, though it was only somewhat recently that they transitioned to building their own automated facility.

We don't plan to do the design ourselves, we realize that our users will be using AI design tools that need to be integrated with the factory. We will build that link.

otekengineering 3 hours ago||
what's your vision for that link?

it's not clear to me what the interface to the user is, or who the user is

tehwebguy 5 hours ago||
What are minimums?
willcarkner 5 hours ago|
Minimum board count: 5

Releasing detailed capability docs on our website today or tomorrow.

namuol 5 hours ago||
> Drone and defense teams get boards back in 7 days

Oh

tgtweak 3 hours ago||
Amazing, now if we could just get this for silicon wafers :D All joking aside, would be great to get something like this for shuttle run wafer taping vs the current 6+ month window.
willcarkner 1 minute ago|
Absolutely. Let's do it for everything
Onavo 5 hours ago|
I hate to ask this..but how exactly do you plan to turn this into a scalable business beyond being yet another Oshkosh? Sure it's profitable but there's a reason hardware manufacturing is generally outsourced to the lowest bidder. Outside of targeting specific sectors e.g. defence, how else do you plan to remain competitive globally? Manufacturing hardware (especially if you are not Apple) is generally a capital intensive, low profit margin business that is extremely sensitive to labor costs. The fact that the past two decades of growth in the US is dominated by tech companies is precisely because software and the associated network effects are able to drive disproportionate amount of growth, unlike hardware. The further down the value chain in hardware the more commoditized you are.
tonyarkles 5 hours ago||
I think you’re actually asking good questions!

> scalable business beyond being yet another Oshkosh

OSH Park is fabulous for what they do, but they don’t do PCBA.

I’m not OP, but I think I can provide some insight anyway:

> Outside of targeting specific sectors e.g. defence, how else do you plan to remain competitive globally

I think that trying to be competitive globally would be a dumb play for these folks, they’re optimizing for something different.

Defence is one sector where this model works, no doubt. But there’s a bigger market that doesn’t have a great domestic story yet (I’m in Canada and work with a variety of CA and US PCB/PCBA houses): fast-turn low-volume PCBA, either for prototype iteration or for industrial one-offs. While I work on a specific “sort of defence adjacent” project right now, my past consulting work would’ve benefitted quite a bit from being able to turn around full PCBA work in 7 days. Macrofab end-to-end was usually 3-4 weeks and cutting that iteration time down would’ve had a solid effect on reducing project timelines if it could’ve happened for a reasonable price. There are domestic manufacturers who have optimized for that… but the price was not something my clients were willing to pay to accelerate their projects. If this hits a sweet spot there… that’ll be really exciting for me.

(I’ve already sent it to my team to start looking at)

willcarkner 5 hours ago||
Defense adjacent work is another place where we're seeing some strong pull.

> scalable business beyond being yet another Oshkosh

Yes, OSH Park is awesome. They could add PCBA, but we see the long-term value in owning the full stack (from design to testing of finished boards). Stops us from having a knife fight all the way down.

walrus01 5 hours ago|||
> I hate to ask this..but how exactly do you plan to turn this into a scalable business beyond being yet another Oshkosh?

There are a number of small but very specialized US based defense sub-component manufacturers that support 15 to 20 people with very good paying jobs, building stuff exactly like NDAA compliant UAS flight controllers. Not everything needs to become gargantuan to be a success.

There can also be very good money in manufacturing specialized things that require the work to be done by US citizens with a TS or TS/SCI clearance if you can get into that market.

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