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Posted by tsak 4 hours ago

Taste Is All That's Left(notashelf.dev)
59 points | 45 commentspage 2
cobertos 1 hour ago|
> The market timed you both with the same stopwatch and it did not see the difference. It cannot see the difference. Taste does not show up in the diff.

Doesn't that mean guaranteed failure in the market if you use taste as your guiding star? Therefore, there's really no way to enter the market anymore.

I don't know how you then ship software or monetise it...? The market will just clone it.

So... Don't share stuff publicly? Only share with closed groups? Where does this leave small-time software development...?

mister_mort 49 minutes ago||
Well, this has been true (to a lesser extent) for decades. See "Worse Is Better" and all the subsequent essays and writing following on from that
nemomarx 1 hour ago||
Someone can replicate any high fashion piece of clothing you make by hand. Maybe they could even make it better. Buyers still care about the origin, just in a pretty small market for it.

Maybe software moves to this after it's commoditized? Users might prefer an artisanal one vs ordering it off the shelf or using an agent themselves.

dcre 1 hour ago||
This post is awful! Annoyingly written and zero insight. Most posts about this taste concept are bad (and there have been so many), but this is below average.
grey-area 1 hour ago||
I keep coming back to this turn. It is not consolation but a correction.

This article is unfortunately full of vague slop like this. It seems the author doesn’t trust their own taste.

I also completely disagree with the premise though - so many seem desperate to discuss the implications of a singularity which shows no sign of arriving.

LLMs have ingested the entire internet and are able to generate plausible and mostly accurate text on demand.

What is missing from thee output of LLMs: intelligence, agency, motivation, morality, discrimination and yes, taste.

jauntywundrkind 1 hour ago||
There's a lot here that I enjoy muddling on. And I think taste is very vital. Taste, ambition, seeing possibility: these resonate to me, long resonate, as what I've wanted to see.

And honestly: I've been tired of an age of engineers that are beat down, that only want simple, that finding the most blunt approach is the only way. It has felt tasteless. Anti-ambitious. It often is still very sensible and practical and what you should shoot for! But there are also people wandering around now trying much harder! And I am excited for those frontiers! I think it will challenge and shake the foundations that we've accepted as true, as There Is No Alternative, in exciting bold and fun ways.

I am however pretty unconvinced by the article. There's a lot that doesn't quite work for me, that isn't building the case I'd like, whose takes are off from my read.

> The output is good enough—that is the problem. Good enough is a solvent. It dissolves the reason to do better. For as long as making things was expensive, the expense did quiet work on our behalf. It rationed output.

Agreed about the rationing of output. I do think that the article though continues to show a magical thinking. That we have these things now and they autonomously do the thing. That the LLM's have solved it all.

The article itself goes on at length about how nebulous and abstract taste is:

> Taste is that. It is the compressed, wordless verdict you reach faster than you can justify. It is the “no, again” you say to yourself with total conviction and no available argument

But this contrasts so distinctly to me against "the output is good enough". Is it? That depends. That depends on your taste. The proximate first results come quick. But the technics underneath? Those themselves, in my view, rely enormously on engineering taste to support and advance. I think we see a very similar sort of magical delivery thinking, very clearly on display here:

> When the factories came, they could suddenly make everything—cheaply, uniformly, by the thousand.

As if there was some magical "good enough" transition where suddenly the aliens came and gave us this box that just does the thing. As if we discovered the right formulas and math and now: we had production. Again I think there's just an enormous amount of work and taste that is still actively required inside the factory box, that building the industrial processes is incredibly intense & difficult, even though we have reliable industry-line production and now robots doing the labor.

There's still so many gems, so much lovely material for thought. I love the provocations here, and I think there's a lot of great calibration.

> The friction was not an obstacle to developing taste. The friction was the curriculum.

Makes me think of yesterdays @apenwarr banger,

> Every slow prototype started out as a fast prototype, I think that’s how it goes https://bsky.app/profile/apenwarr.ca/post/3msemlo4rds2h

prerok 52 minutes ago|
I agree with your criticism of "the good enough" and "done with taste" dichotomy.

I would like to comment on this, though:

> that only want simple, that finding the most blunt approach is the only way. It has felt tasteless. Anti-ambitious.

I am always aiming for simple. If it's simple, it's maintainable and can be easy to reason about. Doing that is hard work, though. I used to spend three iterations to achieve it: functions are simple, easy to reason about, properly named and composable.

It's the opposite of blunt, though, so it might be that you meant something else with the term "simple" :)

kimjune01 1 hour ago||
would you let taste make withdrawls from your bank account
Jtarii 1 hour ago||
AI slop
TacticalCoder 3 hours ago|
TFA's title is: "Taste Is All That's Left" but when I read the following:

> But the ratio was never the danger. It held steady for centuries. What held the flood back was that producing the crap cost something. Bad novels still took a year to write. Bad software still took a month to build.

I want to rename the title to "Blogs writing in LLMish are all that's left".

Seriously, take this one: "But the ratio was never the danger.".

Who the FUCK speaks like that?

glitchc 1 hour ago||
Hemingway wrote the same way. Here's a famous example from the Old Man and the Sea:

Every day is a new day. It is better to be lucky. But I would rather be exact. Then when luck comes you are ready.

The reason is simple: Short sentences are punchy. They hit hard, carry emotional weight.

P.S. As evident, clearly I'm having some fun with this, but the point stands.

magicalist 48 minutes ago|||
Short sentences were never the danger, or what the GP is referring to.
win311fwg 31 minutes ago||
But understanding the GP was never the danger. Incomprehensible posts on HN have held steady for decades. What held the flood back was that producing crap was all the users could muster. Bad comments took seconds to write. The ten percent was throttled by lack of use of tools like LLMs to help refine the words into something that could be understood.
warkdarrior 37 minutes ago|||
Correction:

> The reason is simple. Short sentences are punchy. They hit hard. But they carry emotional weight.

throwaway_7274 1 hour ago|||
More importantly, why are there always 30 people who insist that you can’t know it’s claudeslop? Or, “so what if it is,” or something like this? It boggles the mind.
9rx 18 minutes ago||
What boggles your mind is not that people are falling for the genetic fallacy, but that others are calling them out for falling for it?

Does this stem from you believing that there is value in making logical errors, or is your angle more towards believing that nobody should waste their time interacting with someone who makes logical errors?

nnevatie 1 hour ago|||
Yep, it is slop. I got 2-3 paragraphs in and closed the tab, as too many LLMisms raised their ugly heads.
the_af 23 minutes ago|||
> Who the FUCK speaks like that?

Do you mean starting sentences with "But"? I do, but then again I'm not a native speaker and my writing may be nonstandard. Or do you mean short and direct sentences? In which case, Hemingway.

I'm not saying the article isn't AI slop, but I think it's not obvious from the specific sample you chose, since plenty of people online write like that, before AI.

win311fwg 1 hour ago|||
> Who the FUCK speaks like that?

If we assume that it is LLM generated, as suggested, apparently a lot of people, as the LLMs were trained to mimic how people speak (write).

You might find it to be unusual because you probably have never read anything written by most people. Only peculiar characters tend to get noticed.

red75prime 10 minutes ago|||
> the LLMs were trained to mimic how people speak (write)

It's a foundational model (fresh from autoregressive pretraining) that approximates the probability distribution of human texts. And, no, it's not the statistical average of how people speak. It approximates how a person who could have written a text in its context would have written the next words.

Fine-tuning, RLHF, reinforcement learning change this probability distribution. I guess, it's mostly RLHF that shapes the way LLMs write. The similarity of style is due to common providers of RLHF data.

rogerrogerr 1 hour ago|||
But no _individual_ speaks like this. It is not common that a guy representative of the Average Of All People Plus Some RL writes a blog post.
Terr_ 1 hour ago|||
That reminds me of story where the US Air Force attempted to design a cheaper cockpit and chair that would fit the "average pilot".. but in practice it fit nobody well. They went back to the drawing-board and put in all sorts of adjustable components instead.

This is likely because the individual measures being averaged like "femur length" were not independent from one-another, even where they had the benefit of being normally distributed.

win311fwg 1 hour ago|||
The specific quote that we are talking about reads like something I wouldn't find unusual in the works of an individual. Maybe not from someone who stands out as someone who writes things that you'd actually want to read, but from an average Joe? It is likely. I, being no wordsmith myself, have written things just like that. It looks quite typical of how people write to me.

In fact, I find no meaningful difference between "But no _individual_ speaks like this." and "But the ratio was never the danger.", aside from them being about different topics. They are syntactically very similar.

kunai 1 hour ago|||
> Who the FUCK speaks like that?

Walter Hartwell White, I suppose.

jasonlotito 1 hour ago||
> Who the FUCK speaks like that?

It's a blog post. It was written. The written word is different from the spoken.

People don't speak like: The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.

People don't speak like: In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit.

In fact, I can throw this question at you:

"TFA's title is"

Who the FUCK speaks like that? Who the FUCK uses TFA's IRL OMG WTF?

Silly, isn't it?

Grosvenor 1 hour ago|||
The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel.
pessimizer 1 hour ago||||
> It's a blog post. It was written.

The person you're replying to is saying that it wasn't written. If you are the author, I will believe you that it was. If you are not the author, I have no idea why you think you know more than anyone else does.

yifanl 1 hour ago|||
Yes, your pedantry shows how you're very clever. Please be very clever somewhere else.
RickS 1 hour ago||
Even if they didn't make a fair point (and I think they do), I would prefer their pedantry to your palpable contempt by a large margin. I mean "palpable" literally. My body is tenser and my heart more sad having experienced the voice you just used on that person.
yifanl 1 hour ago|||
Thank you, I take great pride and effort in compressing as much emotional weight into as short a statement as possible.
pessimizer 1 hour ago|||
I miss when people used to hide emotional fragility, and not publicly brag about being physically and emotionally devastated by an HN comment.
recursive 50 minutes ago||
Please be nostalgic somewhere else.