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Posted by bschne 1 day ago

Can you reverse engineer an ASIC?(blog.janestreet.com)
110 points | 76 commentspage 2
whitten 1 day ago|
Is there something like an Extract-SPICE tool that takes a circuit and gives you back a text rendering of it ?
kayson 1 day ago||
Yes. There is exactly that, and we call it an "extraction" tool. It takes a GDS (text representation of shapes in the physical layout), and gives you back a "netlist" (text representation of components and connections in a circuit schematic).

Circuit designers use these tools basically daily for two reasons - the first is Layout Versus Schematic. We want to make sure that the physical layout matches the schematic, so the tool turns the layout GDS into a netlist and compares that to the netlist created from the schematic (basically a diff, but more complicated). The second is so we can run simulations that take into account the "parasitic" resistances and capacitances of the wires and metal shapes in the physical layout. It's basically the same procedure as LVS with an extra step that analyzes the metal shapes to determine said R's and C's.

Taniwha 1 day ago||
yes, but at the transistor level .... it has no idea at that level how those transistors are arranged into gates directly
Taniwha 1 day ago|||
I take it back, it's a sky130 .gds the gates are explicitly in there
kayson 1 day ago||||
The tools can definitely recognize static logic gates purely from the topology (nothing special in the GDS needed). I don't know that I've tested it for anything more complicated, but as you've pointed out, if the hierarchy is in the GDS it's trivial to recover
Taniwha 1 day ago|||
In fact if you have the sky130 libraries installed (it's where I'm working) you can get a spice netlist out of it in about 10 seconds - really they should have flattened it
Joel_Mckay 1 day ago||
Practically No, the stack-up of metal layers often hides the gate structures underneath, and the billions of process cells may not all be the same.

Theoretically Yes, as an ion-beam-mill and electron-microscope combination machine can slice up semiconductors layer-by-layer. Given these machines can often also give precise x-ray analysis material data, the exact makeup of the chip can be extracted by competitors given enough time. =3

duskwuff 12 hours ago|||
> Theoretically Yes, as an ion-beam-mill and electron-microscope combination machine can slice up semiconductors layer-by-layer.

You may not even need anything as fancy as that - many microchips can be delayered by a skilled operator using mechanical polishing processes.

saltcured 1 day ago|||
Now you're making me imagine some kind of 3D-scanning, confocal x-ray fluorescent spectroscope.

Or maybe some kind of hybrid of x-ray microtomography and spectroscopic analysis all in one.

But, maybe the energies involved would be about the same destructive power as some microtome slicing technique...

inigyou 1 day ago||
We already know that X-rays don't destroy chips.
saltcured 1 day ago|||
I was thinking of the kind of high-energy photon sources that sprawl across a large laboratory campus behind rings of security fences.

These things can definitely erode the targets. Tomography experiments have to think carefully to optimize the set exposure angles used during a session, because the target degrades more with each shot.

bofadeez 1 day ago|||
[flagged]
Joel_Mckay 1 day ago||
I’d recommend the Chenming-Hu books on solar cells and semis available as pdfs on his site.

https://www.chu.berkeley.edu/modern-semiconductor-devices-fo...

LLMs have already been shown to cause cognitive/skill performance losses in some users. =3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axOcn--n_lM

inigyou 1 day ago|||
You're replying to a probably now shadowbanned LLM bot that advertises Fable all day
bofadeez 1 day ago||
Are these "shadow bans" in the room with you right now? What a nut.

Fable needs no advertising. It was more important than the printing press. Code singularity.

But it's old news, Fable is no longer my favorite LLM. I mostly use Kimi k3 now. It's also more competent than you are in general.

The primary point you're avoiding is that programming is not a job for professional humans anymore. At least not humans with any dignity or self respect or economic value.

I'm sure you at least agree with this point, like every other reasonable person does now too.

perching_aix 1 day ago|||
> LLMs have already been shown to cause cognitive/skill performance losses in some users. =3

Sorry to interrupt your smugness, but have you actually read that study? It's basically tautological: people remained mostly unfamiliar with code they did not write, and remained mostly unfamiliar with a library they did not use. That's kind of the whole point to begin with! https://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/rni/papers/realprg.html

Unless you want to argue that anyone who cannot code is brain damaged, I'd say it's a bit difficult to suggest that this would amount to any kind of clinically relevant cognitive impairment, much to the contrary of the masses desperately hoping and asserting so. Losing a skill you don't use / want / need is very normal cognitive function.

Joel_Mckay 23 hours ago|||
Quod erat demonstrandum =3
perching_aix 21 hours ago||
I genuinely wish you were at least half as smart as you think you are, cause then you wouldn't be acting obnoxiously like this, willfully betraying your own values.

It'd be generally awesome if the last bastions of humanity actually demonstrated any of the values they're championing so hard at all.

Joel_Mckay 16 hours ago||
I would never kink shame a persons cognitive dildo, or irrational off-topic cult dogma.

Have a wonderful day =3

perching_aix 16 hours ago||
[dead]
mentat 1 day ago||
30 minutes with /goal for the solution from Sol w/ high.
q3k 1 day ago||
In a simplified scenario (not too far from this)? Yeah, we've done that in CTFs almost a decade ago.

https://blog.dragonsector.pl/2017/10/?m=1

inigyou 1 day ago|
From where do I know the name Dragon Sector and q3k? You aren't the ones who hacked the train DRM, are you? Or maybe active in the demo scene? Or maybe I'm just confusing you with TRSi?
q3k 1 day ago||
Maybe. :)
IshKebab 1 day ago||
That sounds like a fun challenge. Feels a lot more tractable than the neural net one.
arjie 1 day ago||
Man, these guys always have insane puzzles. What the heck.
inigyou 1 day ago||
[flagged]
ck2 1 day ago|
people who can do this stuff are super-smartypants

but reminds me how we're going to find out on an industrial level when the Saudis give China some nvidia chips they were grifted

they've cloned lots of chips before but nothing that advanced

Taniwha 1 day ago||
I'm a chip designer, back in the early 90s I visited a small silicon house who were doing some work for us, their boardroom table had been taken over by a giant sized photomicrograph of IBM's VGA chip and they had a bunch of summer hire grad students tracing wiring and matching standard cells (easier back then because we only worked in 2 layers of metal).

They weren't trying to steal IBM's design, they already had one of their own, what they wanted to know was "is there any as yet unannounced functionality in the IBM VGA chip?" they didn't want to be caught out when some unknown registers popped up. Of course it turned out there was as yet unannounced functionality - but not by IBM's design, more because of the orthogonality of the design - MODE-X was discovered and became the basis for DOOM's speed, anyone who didn't support it lost out

jsLavaGoat 1 day ago||
MODE-X launched 1,000 ships too with the demoscene.
inigyou 1 day ago|||
You can do this. If you commit the whole next month to it you'll make quite some progress. But you won't.
bofadeez 1 day ago||
[flagged]
JSR_FDED 1 day ago|||
They did give the chips to China, but they didn’t work. Turns out they’d first taken them to the basement where someone cut them into pieces before sending them to China.
inigyou 1 day ago||
China has no shortage of Nvidia chips. It costs nothing (relatively) for someone to just buy a 5090 off the shelf and send it there.