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Posted by RickJWagner 16 hours ago

What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers(www.noemamag.com)
500 points | 585 commentspage 2
RobinL 8 hours ago|
I've often felt my job as a programmer has often been to automate myself (and others) out of my job. But I've always felt in control of that. I suppose there's some cosmic justice to the fact that it's now being done to me.
bjt12345 8 hours ago|
Serious question though - how are they going with that?

In reality, I see a lot of the current unhappiness in the Tech industry is being triggered by their pointy haired bosses wasting millions on their failed AI strategies only to embark on more failing AI strategies.

RobinL 8 hours ago|||
One example: I've been working for a couple years (not full time) on a high performance FOSS address matcher: https://github.com/moj-analytical-services/uk_address_matche...

Until recently LLMs have been really bad at this task. I always knew it was coming, but with GPT 5.6 they've suddenly become good. It's pretty clear to me that it won't be long before most of my work on this is rendered pointless because the LLM can either do the classification itself (when given agentic access to the canonical list of addresses), or write a classifier itself if given enough labelled data. Of course these two are complementary

luke5441 7 hours ago||
Given it is being trained on your project, the latter isn't that surprising. For the former, you could use LLMs yourself for the probabilistic matching as alternative method? Probably you don't because the trade-offs (like performance) are not worth it...
RobinL 7 hours ago||
Yes - it's certainly the case at the moment that you can run a few thousand through the LLM at a reasonable price, but not, say, ten million. But the rate of progress suggests to me that this argument won't hold up forever. Eventually I think an off the shelf LLM will outperform most and probably all more traditional ML models at this task. Largely because LLMs can identify tricky ones and pick them out for more intensive effort (e.g. looking online, further searches again the canonical list of addresses)
brushfoot 7 hours ago||
"Knowledge work is mostly pointless" is the author's view, so his article (the fruit of knowledge work) should be measured by it.

Amd that sentiment is hardly surprising, coming as it does from a Director of AI Operations (his title on LinkedIn).

uncivilized 6 hours ago||
Do you disagree that your work is pointless?
entropy47 5 hours ago||
I certainly do. As usual the revolution is weeks away, but I continue to produce work better, faster and more reliably than my colleagues who have outsourced their brains to Claude.

You can tell me I'm not gonna make it and the last 5% is going to topple on the next model release, but the work I enjoy doesn't have precedents and it seems the plagiarism machine is quite bad at that specific flavour of knowledge work.

Nextgrid 3 hours ago|||
> I continue to produce work better, faster and more reliably than my colleagues who have outsourced their brains to Claude.

It matters little if your employer does not recognize/value that? Given the quality of most software nowadays, the output of Claude driven by a monkey appears to be perfectly acceptable for a lot of companies.

(yes, there's likely a big reckoning coming where all the slop and tech debt suddenly catches up with them, but that could be a decade off and you still need to pay rent in the meantime)

uncivilized 5 hours ago|||
That has nothing to do with your work being pointless or not (it is), but more you showcasing your insecurity of having to be smarter than your peers because they use LLMs.
entropy47 4 hours ago||
Oh, I hadn't even considered the interpretation here where you're saying knowledge work is pointless and always has been. I'm not even going to engage with that one because I see the value and real world impact of my work every single week.

I don't think I'm smarter than my colleagues who use LLMs, for what it's worth. I just have the advantage of continuing to think, try, improve etc.

stevenwoo 4 hours ago||
I’m only surprised how deliberately he avoided using the term alienation - I guess he was just afraid of invoking Marx but not Debord or Graeber.
lostaccount 15 hours ago||
This is basically office space but for the modern era. Peter found happiness in construction work, but when something physical like that is your job… I don’t know. A lot of those guys have back pain, inflexible schedules, working in extreme weather, and the pay isn’t even that good. Is tech so bad? Or is the world of work broken?
pc86 14 hours ago||
> A lot of those guys have back pain, inflexible schedules, working in extreme weather,

And a lot of them don't?

A lot of people who work on a computer all day also have back pain and inflexible schedules. Hell, I'm sure a lot of knowledge workers in other countries work in places with no air conditioning, for example - not exactly "extreme" but not climate-controlled, either.

jonahrd 14 hours ago|||
There are definitely downsides to office work, but this post really implies to me that you don't actually personally know anyone who works in the trades. The amount of body pain/damage, extreme conditions, and ridiculous scheduling (as in, last minute decisions that you must be on site at 5:30am the next day, not as in overall hours) are pretty much incomparable to tech work.
pc86 13 hours ago||
I didn't say they were comparable. But there is a common refrain that every single person who works in the trades has their body basically destroyed by the time they're 40, which isn't remotely true, and that nobody who works in an office (or a number that is essentially a rounding error) has any physical effects directly caused by that, which also isn't remotely true.
phainopepla2 8 hours ago||
That's not a common refrain, that's you interpreting reasonable statements in the most extreme possible way.
thatwasdumb 4 hours ago||
[flagged]
hiAndrewQuinn 9 hours ago|||
It's not for nothing that de facto founder of the Singaporean state Lee Kuan Yew wooed top men and women into working government jobs by ensuring the government buildings had A/C. I would far prefer an inflexible air conditioned 9 to 5 than a flexible perpetual sauna.
dec0dedab0de 12 hours ago|||
Physical labor is bad for the knees, but good for the soul.
nancyminusone 13 hours ago||
Office workers get chronic conditions from sitting around all day too. Yet vary few jobs provide any such balance.
dec0dedab0de 12 hours ago|||
The only tech job that had that balance was a network engineer at the headquaters of a global company in a skyscraper with 3 offices and a datacenter in walking distance. Most of the time I was sitting around writing code or configs, but at least once a week I would have to walk to a different floor or building to wire up a switch or rack a new DNS server or whatever. That bit of required physical activity and interaction with others was always a highlight.
KellyCriterion 9 hours ago|||
Actually the only job without all those problems (err,any problems?) is to b a fitness instructor or personal trainer; not on an extreme level,8h a day, but let say you have 2 clients or maybe 3 clients a day, this would be enough movement / workout to never ever run into these problems, I guess?
FLeXMurphy 15 hours ago||
This article is too inward, clique referential looking. It uses too many "known" things to frame and validate its points, but has very little contributions of its own.

The way that people are described, and the conditions portrayed, have been this way for quite some time. The only thing that is changed is now there is a clearly defined boogeyman to point to that justifies it. Because the other boogeymen make the usual authors too uncomfortable to bring up.

chrisjj 15 hours ago||
> This article is too inward

Too inward for what?

VCFundedGenYer 12 hours ago||
[flagged]
FLeXMurphy 12 hours ago||
No, I pained myself reading the article too much for that.
hdndjsbbs 4 hours ago||
The bigger problem, for me, is that knowledge work has become stupid. If you want to write code by hand and do a good job, you will be ruthlessly replaced by your boss churning out "good enough" LLM code.

The CEO at my company tried to PR code to my repo. It didn't make any sense but it was a whole political thing to make it go away.

The industry has always been stupid and selfish and short-sighted but now the ICs at the bottom of the pyramid are themselves being commoditized like all the workers they "disrupted".

agys 15 hours ago||
Side note: a half an hour call on a commute train (or in public spaces) is considered extremely rude in many parts of the world.
mattcantstop 14 hours ago||
It's rude to me as well. But I think we are wrong about this.

I was in the doctor's office and a person was on the phone talking in the waiting room. I thought it was weird. But then I thought "if a person was sitting in the seat next to them and they were talking, would that be weird?"

I don't think we'd see two people talking as being weird. Why is it weird if someone is by themself speaking to someone that isn't around on the phone? If two people can speak in that place, it's not weird for someone to have a phone discussion.

Now playing music speakers or watching TikTok videos on your phone in a public place...psychotic!

1123581321 9 hours ago|||
That’s a good observation. I think it’s where their heads are facing. Two conversationalists face each other or face the room, but talk quietly with body language that suggests they’re conversing (heads tilted, leaning.)

Someone talking on the phone but facing away from the room isn’t usually considered rude, either.

In a waiting room or train car, if you’re sitting and talking on the phone or Zoom, you’re broadcasting into the room with your posture. Your voice tends to broadcast as well with no wall or other conversant as an immediate barrier.

dec0dedab0de 12 hours ago|||
I would consider two people talking to each other in a waiting room or on a train very rude too. If they are loud enough that the people next to them or behind them can hear the words they are saying, then it is rude of them. Of course, this is relative to how noisy the place is overall.
bethekidyouwant 8 hours ago|||
perhaps this is why you are unhappy and not the other stuff.
titanomachy 5 hours ago||
Maybe he's just Japanese, or German.
elric 15 hours ago|||
It is rude and annoying in general. But even in quiet cars it seems like many people just don't give a fuck and will simply jabber on obnoxiously without any care for anyone else.

Would be nice if people could keep their noise levels down in general.

Der_Einzige 14 hours ago||
These kind of social rules are why I’m very glad that America has garbage public transit culture. Actually I am going to jabber on talking to folks during transportation events. I’m going to do it in my personal vehicle so I don’t have to deal with others crying about my behavior.

Only poor people are required to humiliate themselves by asking every tom, dick, and harry for their opinion on if their behavior is acceptable.

titanomachy 5 hours ago|||
I sincerely hope you're able to someday deal with your issues and become free from your suffering
7230883707 8 hours ago||||
[flagged]
dec0dedab0de 12 hours ago|||
You're farting with a walkman on.
tacker2000 5 hours ago|||
Unfortunately people all over are starting to not do anything.

On a recent plane ride some old guys were watching movies on their phones on full volume. I complained and they stopped, but another guy in another row started doing it again. It gets tiring.

Last week I was on a NYC subway train to JFK Airport and there was a guy blasting some loud hip-hop/trap and a small kid playing some loud game, totally oblivious to the people on the train. After they left some older guy stepped in talking on full speaker to someone for 10 minutes.

It was quite crazy tbh, and I guess people here have already given up and start accepting it since it is tiring to police somebody new every 5 minutes and could also end in violence.

WorldPeas 5 hours ago||
The number of people blasting video on a regional flight with no internet really made me reconsider just how necessary airplane mode is. Probably an applicable case study for many other societal boundary-breaches silently spreading.
arendtio 14 hours ago|||
I think it depends not just on culture but also on the volume of the conversation. Some people manage to have a conversation when you can barely hear them; others seem to have a conversation with everyone on the train.
swat535 13 hours ago||
I don't mind people having conversations, just don't blast the volume up or put it on speaker for the whole train to hear..
neom 15 hours ago|||
From my experience, (outside of the quiet car), "extremely rude" - only South Korea and Japan?
left-struck 15 hours ago|||
Having lived in both Australia and Japan and visited SK, for me it seems like it’s rude in all those places but only in some places do almost all the people care what strangers think enough to modify their behaviour. Which is not as judgmental a statement as it sounds like, because that care, or some might call it pressure to conform, has upsides and downsides.
neom 14 hours ago||
Yeah, to clarify my comment, I think it's rude everywhere and I suspect many others generally also, but I've only experienced feeling I couldn't do it/people will absolutely stop you in SK/JP. I've been on trains all through Europe, the UK, almost all of North America and usually hear someone on the phone, but nobody ever says anything.
dspillett 15 hours ago||||
UK, unless you are quiet about it. Though you might not notice as our reaction only tends to be in body language, or for particularly loud speakers (particularly those who are GOING INTO A TUNNEL or otherwise think shouting will help with bad reception) we might tut.
boelboel 14 hours ago||||
It's considered rude in Belgium, at least when I commuted there by train. People would leave the wagon to take a call. Maybe it's changed in the past few years. There were also signs that it's prohibited to call in the trains.
margalabargala 14 hours ago||
Leave the wagon to where? Like get off the train? The trains are all wagon, no?
NicuCalcea 14 hours ago|||
There's usually some space between train coaches (I think it's called a gangway?) or at the end of a coach (a vestibule) that is separated from the seats area by doors on both sides. You can take your call there.
margalabargala 13 hours ago||
Gotcha. On the trains I'm used to (Amtrak, NYC subway) spaces between cars are either nonexistent, or extremely dangerous.
NicuCalcea 8 hours ago|||
In London, subway cars are either completely separated and you can't travel between them, or it's just one long continuous tube, there are no vestibules. You don't get much signal underground either way, so it's rare to see people on a call.

Most trains however have a space [0] at the end of each car where you enter and exit. That space can also have a toilet, bike storage, various (locked) train controls, sometimes even a few seats [1] where you can sit if your call will be a while.

0: https://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/uploads/7/6/8/3/76...

1: https://www.modernrailways.com/sites/modernrailways/files/im...

lazyasciiart 8 hours ago|||
Amtrak trains have vestibules when I take them.
boelboel 14 hours ago|||
Leave the department*, the parts where people get on/off trains are closed off from the seats. There's also some gangway connections which have doors between the wagons.
ausbah 15 hours ago|||
i’m in the US, if you took a call for more than a few mins a busy metro car I’d tell you to knock it off
qbit42 15 hours ago|||
People talk on the phone all the time on every US metro I’ve tried. Seems fine if they’re not on speaker or raising their voice
serf 14 hours ago||||
My dad speaks loudly on speakerphone phones in restaurants and public spaces daily because he's a rude old asshole.

No one beside myself has ever told him to stop because I think being old gives one a bit of a 'get out of jail free card ' with regard to social behaviors.

I would love for you or someone like you to happen upon him and tell him to knock it off, but alas that seems fleetingly rare.

honkostani 14 hours ago||
[dead]
nikole9696 13 hours ago|||
Unfortunately, these days, most of us won't do that because there is a high likelihood it could incite violence.
chasd00 7 hours ago||
and inciting violence is against the law.
chrisjj 15 hours ago||
UK included.
darepublic 7 hours ago||
I'll never consider my time with programming to be useless. Even if we got sent back to the stone age and programmable computers no longer existed. The way of thinking to me is very valuable
nik282000 5 hours ago||
The fact that you can think is what is valuable. I work for a slew of drones who will ask the same question 4 or 5 times, to multiple people, hoping that one of them will 'slip up' and reveal that there is actually a hidden easy solution.
thatwasdumb 4 hours ago||
[flagged]
tines 7 hours ago||
Yeah, some people only assign value to things in terms of money and economics. I will never understand these people.

You are the art.

rarisma 15 hours ago||
"It's good to be in something from the ground floor. I came too late for that and I know. But lately, I'm getting the feeling that I came in at the end. The best is over."

I feel like this can be applied to a lot of things, but this is pretty much how I've felt working in tech for the last 2ish years.

jebarker 14 hours ago|
What makes you feel like that? Is it AI specifically?
kstenerud 8 hours ago||
The author talks as if this were a new phenomenon; it is not.

I actually did go buy a farm in the 2010s, grew alfalfa, managed cattle, cared for horses, etc. Except I did it while working remote as a software engineer.

Very fun life, and I may return to it again. But it's not an AI thing, and it's not a disappearing job thing. It's just that office work keeps you so separated from the real world that you yearn for something physical.

asdff 8 hours ago||
If I could make white collar pay landscaping, that's what I'd do for the rest of my life. One of the best jobs I had but they pay only a couple dollars above minimum wage.
pavel_lishin 8 hours ago|||
How much time did the farming take, compared to the software engineering aspect?

My very limited understanding of farming is that it takes a huge amount of time, and you're usually up and working before sunrise, even with automation.

kstenerud 8 hours ago||
Yes, I was up at 4 am every day. It's hard work.
IshKebab 7 hours ago||
Yeah I had to stop reading after the author thought he could draw some deep insight from the fact that someone with a boring finance job had a hobby...
olooney 15 hours ago|
Scholars and academics have been bemoaning the pointlessness of what the article calls "knowledge work" for centuries. A few of my favorites:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_American_Scholar

https://andrewmbailey.com/papers/Higher-order%20truths%20abo...

ComputerPerson 15 hours ago|
There's a well-known book that labels programmers as a specific type of pointless job. "Duct tapers" is the category. Also task masters, who would have a foot under the software development umbrella, have space in the book.

"Bullshit Jobs"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs

cgh 7 hours ago|||
This book and the "bullshit jobs" label is discussed extensively in the article.
Der_Einzige 14 hours ago|||
We are socially punished for our extremely cushy jobs

SWE has negative social value. Saying you’re a SWE or god forbid anything in AI in a dating/courtship context is basically suicide.

We are paid so well as compensation for debasing ourselves socially. A lot of normies intuitively understand the concepts in that book even without reading it and either see you as evil or a grifter, maybe both, when you say you work in tech/AI.

A lot of people are going to have extreme schadenfreud as they watch tech workers take L after L. They really hate us, they want us bullied or dead or wishing we were.

Still, it was totally worth it because the blue collar pricks that dislike tech workers are even worse in so many ways. At least I’m not a shitty construction worker responsible for contributing to the pathetic state that our housing industry is in.

ComputerPerson 13 hours ago|||
Woah, bad day?

I've noticed or experienced absolutely none of this. The closest thing I can relate to is that I operate on a different intellectual plane from some of my blue-collar friends. This causes a divide and probably limits intimacy, but does not result in negative relationships.

Regarding the dating world, it impresses people that I'm an SWE. My role is a boon, maybe because it signals intelligence; I'm not sure.

Strongly disagree here. Would encourage you to try to reframe some of that. Sorry if that comes across as patronizing.

arjie 8 hours ago||||
This hasn’t been true for me. Not only are the majority of software engineers I know married but also looking at the marriage rates in high-income in the Bay Area, it’s quite high, so I don’t think it’s specific to my group.

There are angry people on the Internet but real life has rarely reflected them.

Der_Einzige 7 hours ago||
Can't believe people here try to gaslight me on this topic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtACIFEddhM

"If you're not taken, gay, or furry, the consensus is that dating in SF sucks..."

monknomo 7 hours ago|||
It sounds like you are describing a problem with the San Francisco dating scene, which does relate to a small subset of the SWE experience, but hardly covers anything close to the totality of being an SWE.
arjie 7 hours ago|||
Well, I certainly was not trying to 'gaslight' you considering I repeatedly anchored my view in "for me" and "engineers I know" and then used a statistic to say that my experience seems pretty standard.

To gaslight you would be to try to convince you that your experience is not what it was. I have no doubt that one's social context determines the outcomes here a lot.

coldpie 8 hours ago|||
That has not been my experience at all. Usually people aren't interested in the career as a conversation topic ("Oh I don't understand anything about computers! Anyway,") but I've never seen anything like what you're describing.

Maybe AI people specifically get that kind of reaction, but that's a pretty hot topic at the moment.

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