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Posted by jnord 17 hours ago

Radical Study Suggests Life on Earth Arose Twice(www.sciencealert.com)
118 points | 90 commentspage 2
peter_stokes 16 hours ago|
unfortunately the field of abiogenesis, just like extraterrestrial life, is a lost cause.

The reality we will never be able to replicate creation of life nor find life on other planets (except via contamination). it's why we've never gotten any closer. and i'm not even religious

Qem 15 hours ago|
Likely we don't need to replicate. We just need to get a sample of life with completely independent origin to our kind of life here on Earth, to study. This way we would be able to separate what are universal properties for any life from historical contingencies specific to us. To have samples of a single kind of life complicates things.
pfdietz 14 hours ago||
Were that to happen it could be the worst news humanity ever receives, since it would greatly increase the chance the "Great Filter" is in front of us, not behind us.
triceratops 8 hours ago|||
The Great Filter is only one possible answer to the Fermi Paradox.
Qem 13 hours ago|||
Not if it's just microbial life. Anyway it's just one case or another. We knowing what's the case doesn't change it. If the news never break it would be just as bad, perhaps even slightly worse, as we would not have early warning to prepare.
ck2 15 hours ago||
what's really going to blow your mind is our solar system looked completely different several times with different proto-planets and Earth/Moon is likely made from remnants of those other planets

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formation_and_evolution_of_the...

pfdietz 14 hours ago|
The Youtube channel Kyplanet recently had an episode on recent arguments that the Earth/Moon system was formed from at least three giant impact events, not just a single one between proto-Earth and Thea that formed the current Earth and the Moon.
NoMoreNicksLeft 10 hours ago||
If life could arise once, why would the conditions not be amenable to it arising more than once? Sure, life tends to pollute-terraform for itself, but it's a big planet, with more than enough distance between the first occurrence and pristine environment for it to happen several more times.
jibal 2 hours ago|
binaryturtle asked this question above and got about 10 responses. Conditions are very different, precursors to life get quickly consumed by existing life, origin of life is a rare event, etc.
qsera 15 hours ago||
Origin of life on earth is not very interesting to me. Origin of life in the universe is where it is at...
usrnm 15 hours ago|
Until we get any tangible proof of life outside Earth, there is no difference
qsera 15 hours ago|||
Actually I don't think there is life outside of Earth. I think we are truly alone in this universe.
VLM 7 hours ago|||
Its an exciting time to be alive because as of recently we certainly can detect planetary atmosphere major components out to at least 700 or so light years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WASP-39b

There are astronomers actively working on minor component, more biologically interesting spectrographs like chlorophyll rather than spectrograms of carbon dioxide. That'll be harder to detect and limited to shorter ranges.

At some point, probably very soon, like less than a decade, we'll be able to definitively state that we have atmospheric data in an onion layer shaped shell where we have unequivocable proof that out to X lightyears from Earth there's no planetary scale chlorophyll higher than a minimal level aka there's no earth-like plants on that planet. That shell will likely expand over time. Or, perhaps we will find a forested, or at least algae covered, planet, some light years away, which would be very interesting indeed.

The question is rapidly changing from a purely philosophical belief to scientific observation, like right now, in real time, in the 2020s. What a cool time to be alive!

This follows old, old stuff from radio astronomy along the lines of how far away could a 1960s radio telescope realistically detect life on earth. The answer IIRC was not very far LOL. But there's been a lot of progress in radio astronomy, etc.

With respect to fermi filters etc people need to pay attention to how far away the Earth can be detected using radio telescopes. That distance has imploded since the end of analog UHF TV broadcasts. We still broadcast absolute swill, in fact more than ever, but digital detection range is much lower than analog AM carrier detection range from analog TV. The Earth has, to some extent, recently gone radio-quiet, which is interesting because we are still here, in fact more of us than ever. So WRT fermi filters of not being able to detect civilizations, disappearance of 1950s/1960s signals does not necessarily imply disappearance of civilization. Another example, if any aliens are watching the high altitude freon contamination of our atmosphere they're likely really confused right about now.

pfdietz 14 hours ago|||
I agree. The Fermi Argument, and the apparent rarity of K3 civilizations in other galaxies, is to me powerful evidence of the scarcity of life. At the least, this suggests SETI should focus on distant galaxies where the Fermi argument doesn't bite as much.
ck2 15 hours ago|||
There is likely simple basic life as advanced as bacteria around the universe

But high level life was likely a series of complex accidents that is not reproducible or would be radically different than us

One of my absolute favorite PBS Space Time on the subject

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abvzkSJEhKk

pfdietz 14 hours ago||
> There is likely simple basic life as advanced as bacteria around the universe

What is the basis for this assertion?

ck2 13 hours ago||
single-cell "life" can be so simple that scientists can create it in a lab "SpudCell"

* https://www.science.org/content/article/lab-created-spudcell...

somewhere among 2 TRILLION planets in our galaxy there is a planet with enough atmosphere and magnetosphere to protect it from space radiation so there is likely bacteria

but complex life far more difficult and unlikely, very rare, as explained in the PBS Space Time I linked above, the "Cambrian Explosion"

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian_explosion

if there are viruses and fungi out there however, they could mutate eventually with enough permutations and outside stressors

that video explains the huge leap forward with DNA vs simple protein patterns

pfdietz 13 hours ago||
"SpudCell" already has 36 genes; the information encoded there basically cannot occur by random processes. There is still an enormous complexity gap between it and abiotic systems.

> somewhere among 2 TRILLION planets in our galaxy there is a planet with enough atmosphere and magnetosphere to protect it from space radiation so there is likely bacteria

I reject this conclusion; it certainly isn't justified by the links you provided.

ck2 12 hours ago||
you don't think there is even single-cell life anywhere else but Earth?

why would Earth be that incredibly unique?

it's even plausible Earth was accidentally seeded by panspermia (bacteria on comets)

pfdietz 10 hours ago||
Sorry, when you make an assertion, you don't get to demand I justify questioning it. You need to explain why I should believe you.

Your reversal of burden of proof is a red flag that you don't have a good argument.

IMO, it is quite plausible that OoL is extremely unlikely and that our solar system is the only place where life occurs in the visible universe. Not proved, of course, but the possibility is by no means unreasonable.

ck2 8 hours ago||
wasn't demanding, just wanted to hear what your own logic was instead

but it's pointless to go any further I guess as it's getting outside science

the weak anthropic principle can't be falsified so it cannot be argued

I don't think we'll ever hear from "ET" but I do think it's perfectly plausible to find single-celled or simple bacteria elsewhere someday (ie. Europa, comet or asteroid)

theodorejb 16 hours ago|
The idea that life came about by luck is completely absurd, even more so than thinking that a computer chip was created by chance erosion of a silicone wafer in exactly the right pattern.

As I see it life was clearly designed by God.

lanstin 16 hours ago||
It’s a big universe and there are a lot of years, so chemical evolution seems like a decent tool for God to use. Much like General Relativity is a more efficient way to rule the world than assigning angels to push the planets thru the sky. And a passing familiarity with birth defects will prove to most hard hearted people that each specific fact of biology is not designed by a loving creator. Unless you believe this messy but gloriously complex universe to be the best of all possible worlds, right up till you lie to your friend, it is difficult to believe whole heartedly in a loving creator.
rationalist 15 hours ago||
I'm not a biblical scholar, but I think the "loving creator" thing was invented by people and not necessarily in the Bible. I'm pretty sure Old Testament God is pretty vengeful.

Theistic Evolution is wide-enough belief, especially with Protestants.

andrewflnr 15 hours ago|||
It is definitely in the Bible. Cynically, God seems to swing wildly between mercy and vengeance, but it's clear he would feel justified in a lot more vengeance than he takes but doesn't because he loves people. Less cynically, he's planning for Jesus and salvation the whole time, and sorta trying to keep the evil from getting out of hand with the occasional smiting. You can make the logic work if you want to.
xkcd1963 14 hours ago|||
This is edging into religious debate, which the guidelines ask people to keep off HN
wao0uuno 6 hours ago|||
And where did that god come from? Primordial soup full of magic and stardust? The idea of life starting by chance is completely absurd to you but somehow a god that just came out of nowhere is perfectly reasonable.
drdeca 4 hours ago||
I don’t think what you are pointing at is a real issue.

Something exists. Therefore, on of the following 3 must hold: “one or more things exists or have existed which were not a consequence of another thing existing”, “an infinite regress of things existing as a consequence of other things”, “a cycles of consequences”.

The purported absurdity of life arising by chance is not about life existing, but about it arising by chance as a consequence of other non-living things.

The idea that god coming from nothing is absurd, well, that absurdity seemingly has to apply somewhere, as all 3 cases of the trichotomy above seem around as absurd? Eventually something has to be without explanation, whether it be a thing or a chain or cycle of things.

Or, were you not aware that most people who believe that God exists believe that God is the first cause?

Apparently you weren’t aware of that, because you said something about magic and stardust??

BigTTYGothGF 9 hours ago|||
> As I see it life was clearly designed by God

Yes, wide-bosomed Gaia, foundation of us all, this research is about the manner in which She did it, if it was one birth or two.

margalabargala 15 hours ago|||
Could you go into why you consider the existence of an invisible (all powerful? Depends which god you mean, you didn't say) being that happens to concern itself with life on Sol's third planet, to be less absurd than what you describe?

Or is that the joke and I'm missing it?

theodorejb 54 minutes ago||
We know that intricate machines are designed by smart people; they don't just happen by luck. The idea that living things, which are far more intricately organized at every level than any machine we have made, could have arisen by some unknown series of chance steps is a fairy tale. It has never been observed, and even in the most controlled of environments it cannot be replicated. To me it's far more reasonable to conclude that life was designed by a super intelligent Creator. Just as a piano implies a piano maker (even if we haven't seen them), life implies an original Life-giver.
WelkinFolk 16 hours ago|||
I wish I were so vain as to think I'm so special, surely I could never have happened by chance.
TacticalCoder 16 hours ago|||
> As I see it life was clearly designed by God.

Which one? There are so many to choose from...

And what created that God? I know it's turtles all the way down but still want to know.

wildzzz 15 hours ago|||
The dogma in many religions is that nothing created God or at least, there's no way to know. He exists outside our time and space. So from our perspective, God has always existed. If you believe that free will is true, then he can see all outcomes of the universe at once. If you don't believe in true free will, he sees the single timeline at once, from the big bang to the heat death of the universe.

Personally, I don't believe in any religions. They were all developed before we had a much clearer idea of how our world works and there's just too much folklore mixed in with actual, yet primitive, philosophical discussions to abide by any of it. But like with the simulation theory, we have no way to know what exists outside our time and space so you shouldn't worry. If there is some bored extra dimensional teenager simulating our universe on their GPU, it ultimately doesn't matter because we'll never know.

prewett 14 hours ago|||
I believe that according to Catholic and Orthodox thought, God is Being itself. If you're familiar with Plato and Aristotle, God is the Form of Being. If not, I guess you could say God is Being as a noun, or God is where the idea of Being comes from. God exists because he is existence itself. (He is also Life and Love, in the same way)
jrapdx3 7 hours ago||
Interesting comment. FWIW the idea of God as Being accords with Spinoza's philosophy, which in turn accords with Greek philosophy and ultimately accords with biblical philosophy. These are roots among the many roots of our modern world.

What we learn from these philosophies is that God is necessarily the author of life and love, but as well hatred and destruction. Worth noting that the latter are most (but not exclusively) expressed in human conduct. Among all animals humans have the most developed ability to decide how to act. That ability is not absolute, often enough logic or reasoning is bypassed and emotion rules.

Naturally cognition is not unbounded, we are limited by constraints of our construction. It means aspects of the universe are unknowable, we can't know what we're missing.

But knowing what we can know is an obligation of our privileged existence. As knowledge expands it exposes the utter complexity of all things emerging from common fundamental processes.

Seeing what is seen, a human may for a moment get a glimpse of the hand that binds everything together. That's a gift if there ever was one.

victorbjorklund 16 hours ago|||
Do you reject evolution or do you believe God only created bacteria etc?
hollywood_court 15 hours ago|||
Which god?
adzm 14 hours ago||
the Sun
jibal 2 hours ago||
> The idea that life came about by luck is completely absurd

Argument by ridicule is a fallacy.

> even more so than thinking that a computer chip was created by chance erosion of a silicone wafer in exactly the right pattern.

But, as I'm sure you have been told many times, that's an absurd strawman, and suggests that you didn't read TFA or anything else that discusses how life may have arisen, including any of the other comments here. Life didn't spring up fully formed, it developed in stages.

> As I see it

I can't think of anything less compelling.

> life was clearly designed by God.

That is semantically incoherent, as well as being a violation of HN guidelines ("Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle.")