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Posted by brandonb 17 hours ago

Adults over 65 will outnumber children by 2029(eco3min.fr)
87 points | 154 commentspage 3
tonyedgecombe 16 hours ago||
>As the ratio of working-age adults (18–64) to older adults falls from about 3.4 today toward roughly 2.4 by 2060, the arithmetic that supports those programs tightens, all else equal. On this reading, the chart is an argument for some combination of higher productivity, longer working lives, higher fertility, or higher immigration to widen the working-age base.

Or spend less.

throw-the-towel 15 hours ago|
Not gonna happen.
theturtle 12 hours ago||
[dead]
throw-the-towel 15 hours ago||
[flagged]
JayNitram 15 hours ago||
Sounds like a gross society justified by what seems to be inflating the intent of a population. 'Demand to be funded' is some inadequacy you have being projected onto target population.
mostlysimilar 15 hours ago|||
Why only women?
throw-the-towel 15 hours ago||
Can't exactly help out with childbirth if you don't have an uterus.
entangledqubit 15 hours ago|||
It isn't just about bringing a bunch of cells to term.

But if you want to oversimplify, why not government fund gestation vat technology? The main blocker for progressing on those right now appear to be self imposed.

mostlysimilar 15 hours ago|||
Last I checked virgin birth remains in the realm of religion, not science.
sph 15 hours ago||
Male genetic material is easier to come by than working wombs, I guess.
faefox 15 hours ago|||
Or maybe societies could instead make the prospect of having children less onerous? It's not an uncommon story in America that a couple will choose to stay unmarried when having children so that the mother can qualify for benefits like childcare (which, if you haven't had children yourself, is staggeringly expensive when it's available at all).

To think that the solution here is to penalize women even more is insane.

missedthecue 15 hours ago||
This is the extremely marketable "solution". Easy to sell to voters. The problem is that it does not work whatsoever. There is no evidence anywhere that transfers to mothers increase birth rates, or that transfers to women increase pairing rates (the upstream problem of birth rates).
baxtr 15 hours ago|||
I met a guy just recently who separated from his gf because she wanted to have children. He didn’t.

If you’re advocating consequences it should apply to both sexes.

Aboutplants 15 hours ago|||
Why would we choose a world where we have to decide who to give healthcare for? Why can’t we take care of both?
swiftisfast 15 hours ago|||
Gettimg mixed signals. "Modest proposal" indicates satiricsl suggestion, but the words "this is going to be flagged to hell" indicates a serious proposal that is controversial. I might overthinking it, but some clarification either way would be nice.
throw-the-towel 15 hours ago||
To be completely honest with you, it's a bit of both. I realise that this idea is somewhat obnoxious, hence the gallows humour. At the same time, I genuinely don't think we have a way out of this that does not involve reforms we today would consider obnoxious.
hackable_sand 15 hours ago||
A way out of what?
ctoa 15 hours ago|||
Ah yes, put the entire burden on women, coerce them into having kids, let men do whatever. Sounds great, totally sane.
EFreethought 15 hours ago|||
Not all childless people are childless by choice.
poly2it 15 hours ago|||
What a unique opinion! Why do you think it is controversial?
fluidcruft 15 hours ago||
To me the ratio just looks like an underdamped vibration of the baby boom. Boomer parents had more kids than the steady state.
cyberax 15 hours ago||
Keep building these bike lanes and 15-minute neighborhoods. So that people don't even think about having children. Make sure people have no personal space and no personal time.

That's how we reduce the Earth's population!

amluto 15 hours ago||
Given a choice between:

(a) non-walkable neighborhoods with big houses, big roads and cars everywhere, versus

(b) smaller houses or apartments but fewer cars, walkable neighborhoods, and bikes (and other small mobility devices that small kids can use)

I can tell you where being a kid seems more fun. And I’ve personally been to both sorts of places recently and observed how the kids behave.

Sure, with big lots, kids have lots of space in their own backyards. And big cars make soccer-momming easier. But, when kids can easily and safely get somewhere else approximately on their own, the whole situation seems better.

And yes, I really did recently observe a pretty big family in one of the latter types of places. How does one parent herd a pile of kids from their small (but not that small) apartment to some destination without a giant car? They tell the bigger kids where they’re going and they take the smaller kids, and maybe the bigger kids get their ahead, and everyone gets to experience an appropriate amount of independence for their age.

There’s also nothing new here. Until quite recently in human history, in most societies, kids were quite free to explore on their own or in groups without adults. I think it’s unfortunate that we’ve built so many places that are unsafe for small children and not easily navigable by older children.

cyberax 12 hours ago||
And I can tell you that (a) is actually where the children _are_. And (b) is where the people go to die.

> Sure, with big lots, kids have lots of space in their own backyards. And big cars make soccer-momming easier. But, when kids can easily and safely get somewhere else approximately on their own, the whole situation seems better.

It seems better, but it's actually not better.

Besides, suburbs can be improved quite a bit by adding local parks, mandating sidewalks, etc. We're also on the cusp of the self-driving revolution, and pretty soon children will be able to just get into a cab by themselves.

> and everyone gets to experience an appropriate amount of independence for their size.

And how do you get to that point from 0 children?

amluto 10 hours ago||
Got data? I think any even remotely serious attempt will discover a very mixed bag. I had an LLM pull data from various places in California and New York (because doing it by hand is a pain), and there isn’t really a clear trend either way as to where the children are.

Palo Alto has a surprisingly large number of children under 18 and under 5, and Palo Alto is fairly walkable as California cities go. Fresno and Bakersfield (not so walkable) are higher. There seems to be a larger fraction of young children in Brooklyn than in less subway-covered areas of the NYC metro area.

In general I suspect that children in the US are mildly skewed toward more suburban areas, but not strongly. There are plenty of children in dense areas.

But my claim wasn’t about where the children are — it’s about where the children can have more fun on the basis of the structure of the neighborhood.

cyberax 9 hours ago||
Look at Houston vs. NYC.

Both have approximately similar populations but completely different approaches to city design.

NYC is at 52 and Harris County (that contains Houston) is at 67 births per year per 1000. But NYC is also diverse, with relatively sparse parts in Brooklyn and Queens, where most children live.

> In general I suspect that children in the US are mildly skewed toward more suburban areas, but not strongly.

Compare the suburban US with dense European cities. The urban damage is cumulative, and Europe started over-urbanizing earlier.

You can see the breakpoint in the US happened in 2008, as the millennials started entering the workforce. They were the first modern generation that _had_ to move to large cities to get ahead economically.

> There are plenty of children in dense areas.

Yes, in desperately poor neighborhoods. That's called an "inverted J curve".

kvuj 15 hours ago|||
As the others have said, to me it seems to be the opposite. I went to Switzerland recently and was shocked at how kid friendly it was (very walkable, kid section in trains, parks with fun toys instead of shitty plastic statues).

I also saw a whole lot of families and children.

As I'm getting older and looking in the coming years at having children, the value of a tight, walkable community has risen exponentially to me.

sheepolog 15 hours ago||
For what it's worth, Switzerland's fertility rate (1.59 births per woman) is still well below the replacement rate, and has been for decades.

I think "make society more child-friendly" is a good idea, but one that doesn't seem to have increased fertility that much. To me it seems that educated people living comfortable lives with access to birth control simply don't want to have that many children. If you look at the country stats, the most proven way to increase fertility is to take away education, women's rights, or birth control. And imo, the western world should adapt to low birth rates, instead of trying to prop them up.

arjie 15 hours ago|||
Well personal space and personal time were not in abundant supply in our times of growth. It is true that urban areas have far fewer children than rural areas and that this is a worldwide property. It’s a pity since I like the ability for kids to walk to places and take the bus or train and I’ve grown up in a rural place (pythons and peacocks, cows and birds, scorpions and cobras!) and in a highly urbanized environment and they both have their advantages.

I personally think it’s just opportunity cost. Children seem like a big deal with unclear benefit and so as people get the chance to substitute with other things they do so. For my part, we put a lot of work into having kids and we live in SF. If we leave, it’ll be because my daughters don’t have mobility here because crime and cars impede their independent movement.

cyberax 13 hours ago||
> I personally think it’s just opportunity cost.

Nope. It's just time and personal living space. It's THAT simple.

Go on, try to plan your day with transit and no car if you have 3 children (with 2-3 year age gaps). You'll find that this really works only if everything is concentrated, or if it's a full-time job for you. That's why we hear so much about "15-minute neighborhoods".

But when everything is concentrated, it becomes EXPENSIVE and you also lose any semblance of choice. You will likely have only one school, one daycare, one community center. You become hemmed in within that "walkable" neighborhood. That park nearby? It surely can look nice, but what if it's the only park within reasonable walking distance? So you don't even have an _option_ to go somewhere else with kids, without making it a full-day trip?

People like to laugh at Texas, about how riding an SUV to a walkable park is ridiculous. But is it, really?

The way to fix all of it? Suburbs and cars. Cars provide personal freedom and personal space. That's also why the US had a higher birth rate for much longer than Europe, and it started cratering once young people were forced (by the economy) to move into dense city cores.

arjie 13 hours ago||
That's how I grew up in a family of four in India and my parents are surgeons so we didn't really have them able to take us places for the majority of time. TFR at the time was 4.0 and we had access to contraception etc. and the majority of our trips here in SF are on foot as well. There are therefore some hidden assumptions here. We do take the car to the paediatrician etc. but I should soon have an Urban Arrow / R&M bike and will see how it performs.
BigTTYGothGF 15 hours ago|||
15-minute neighborhoods with bike lanes are exactly the kinds of places good for raising kids in.
phainopepla2 15 hours ago|||
In theory. In practice, dense urban neighborhoods have very low birthrates, and always have. Cities are population sinks
missedthecue 15 hours ago||||
This is what the policy wonk idealists say, but the undeniable evidence going back hundreds of years is that dense cities are fertility shredders.
littlexsparkee 12 hours ago||
They're talking about raising kids already born, not conditions for having one in the first place. We should separate discussion of the environment from the cost which is the really the main factor for why parents decamp for the suburbs. Causality goes the other way - it's not the compact nature that reduced fertility but the fact that dense neighborhoods are rare and pricey in the US.
cyberax 7 hours ago||
> Causality goes the other way - it's not the compact nature that reduced fertility but the fact that dense neighborhoods are rare and pricey in the US.

They're unfortunately not rare. And dense housing is ALWAYS pricey in the developed countries.

cyberax 15 hours ago|||
No, they're not. They are places where cities go to die.

Walk in Tokyo and try to find children there.

trgn 15 hours ago|||
there's a new urbanist community, walkable, bikelanes, etc.. in my part of the midwest and it's teeming with children.
BigTTYGothGF 13 hours ago|||
> Walk in Tokyo and try to find children there

There might a few more things going on there than just density, perhaps operating on a national level.

cyberax 12 hours ago||
There really, really are not. Tokyo is the prime example of the urban density runaway spiral.

Japan has a declining population, yet Tokyo prices are skyrocketing. Some people now live in "microapartments" where you can cook while sitting on a toilet.

Yet spacious houses are literally sold for nothing but transaction fees, just 2-3 hours away from Tokyo.

btmiller 15 hours ago||
What an odd thing to say. Have you traveled internationally much?
cyberax 15 hours ago||
I speak 5 languages, lived in several countries, and got my first car at the age of 30.
boczez 16 hours ago|
GOOD. We’ve done well to keep everyone alive. All that’s left is to implement sensible economic policies that allow normal folk to start families
bearjaws 16 hours ago|
But the people disinterested in starting families (boomers, genx) are going to be the majority of the voting base?

We've already seen 20 years of policy driven by people who don't care about families being started.

subarctic 15 hours ago|||
They still wanna be grandparents or great grandparents
boczez 16 hours ago||||
A great point, but I don’t think those policies should go after the (relatively tiny) wealth that boomers et al currently hold. As another commenter alluded to, the money is going to have to come from much bigger fish; there’s literally nowhere else to get it from!
philipov 15 hours ago|||
Parents and Grandparents might not be interested in starting families, but they're interested in their (grand)children starting families. Ideally, that's where their wealth would go, except that it's being completely obliterated by retirement and end-of-life care.
midtake 15 hours ago||
If that were true, US policy and trends would reflect that. Instead, as groups, we are seeing earning potential decreased in the young and wealth increase in the old. This is a dysgenic shift. Coupled with AI, which when viewed as a force against labor is a product that reduces the earning potential of the young cohort as a group, this is not sustainable. The lack of stability and opportunity for young people is the sort of stuff that leads to revolution.
co_ent 15 hours ago|||
>(relatively tiny) wealth that boomers et al currently hold

Their wealth is not liquid, but it's not relatively tiny.

>$93 trillion in assets[1]

>Total wealth: $167.26 trillion[2]

[1]https://investor.visa.com/news/news-details/2026/Visa-Resear...

[2]https://smartasset.com/financial-advisor/wealth-by-generatio...

saghm 15 hours ago||||
What? If boomers and genx weren't interested in starting families, where did the generations after them come from?
sdellis 15 hours ago|||
I hate to tell you, but no generation is particularly interested in starting families at this moment in history. This is the closest thing the world has gotten to a general strike to force capitalism to slow its roll.
glaslong 13 hours ago||
Yeah, with apologies to the mill which demands more grist, we grew up hearing that if you can't afford children, then you shouldn't have them. And we learned that lesson. Lived it too, from the other side. Our parents couldn't really afford it, and it's tougher now than then, getting tougher still. So it goes.