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Posted by tosh 15 hours ago

DeepSeek V4 Flash 0731(arcprize.org)
604 points | 363 commentspage 7
WhitneyLand 14 hours ago|
The DeepSeek team is so strong, very impressive.

Imagine if they had GPU resources of western labs.

mosura 14 hours ago|
Necessity is the mother of invention.

SV companies get way too comfortable when they have enough in the bank to stay running more than three months.

artursapek 8 hours ago||
These prices are not real. They already said so.
addozhang 6 hours ago|
what's the real you mean?
Helldez 2 hours ago||
[dead]
ClipBGNET 7 hours ago||
[flagged]
hnc3yfnu6f 13 hours ago||
[flagged]
antirez 15 hours ago||
Price is not a good meter. Active parameters per token are. Joule would be even better.
orbital-decay 14 hours ago||
It's an excellent metric, the amount of applications not viable now due to cost/latency/throughput is vastly bigger than the amount of current use cases. Even current ones do benefit, e.g. it's a great executor subagent.

Energy and intelligence are good too, sure.

fallingbananna 13 hours ago|||
What if we used 100% of the brain all the time?

As an end consumer, I don't care about the number of active parameters. I really do care only about the tracked metric (how well does it do the job, and how much does it cost... ideally also with time included, but that wouldn't fit on a 2D chart)

minimaxir 15 hours ago|||
Price accounts for computational/architectural efficiency improvements whereas active parameters does not.
polytely 14 hours ago||
for someone with a limited budget it is actually very important because it makes me less scared to experiment.
muricula 15 hours ago|
Price is confounded by VC subsidies, economies of scale, and inference optimizations. I think a more interesting chart would be ARC AGI vs forwards pass flops or ARC AGI vs training tokens. Of course we don't have those numbers for the closed source models or even some of the open weight ones.
minimaxir 15 hours ago||
DeepSeek V4 Flash 0731 is an open-weights model which means price is determined by competition/invisible hand of the marketplace: https://openrouter.ai/deepseek/deepseek-v4-flash-0731

With the exception of cache costs, all providers have similar input/output costs.

kennywinker 15 hours ago||
Not counting the cost of making the model, which is subsidized by… someone? The chinese gov i think?
segfault99 9 hours ago|||
DS comes out (one of, or) the most successful quant fund in China.

They don't strictly need any kind of subsidies.

FWIW they have a funding round planned (kerfuffle about leaks from CEO presentation few weeks back) -- presumably because infrastructure needs have ballooned.

Naturally there will be some PRC government interest in one of their flagship AI companies. From what is visible seems to be more along the lines of ensuring that DS gets its fair share of resources -- e.g. Xi Jinping meeting founder and positive comments about success of DS means that (hypothetically) Alibaba can't screw DS too much on infra charges to kill off a 'competitor'. Also would imagine that DS's top guys have been clearly identified and will have been 'discouraged' from going to work for one of the SV polycules. But even here as much carrot as stick -- none of the DS top guys will ever need to work again except for love of the job.

kennywinker 3 hours ago||
> DS comes out (one of, or) the most successful quant fund in China

> They don't strictly need any kind of subsidies.

You understand how these two sentences directly contradict each-other, yeah? The money-losing operating of training a model is paid for by momey earned from prior investments. So… the work is “subsidized” by its parent company’s investments in it.

_aavaa_ 14 hours ago|||
Subsidized by inference profits and volume.
kennywinker 3 hours ago||
Is deepseek actually turning enough of a profit off inference to fully pay for training the next model? And do those profits depend on releasing model weights somehow?
npn 15 hours ago||
weak argument. deepseek v4 flash is open weight, you can easily find other providers with competitive price with Deepseek (except for input caching), some even half as cheap.